| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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XXXphxxx (X) 
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:39
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER
I think I’ve put forward as many solutions as I can think of to get round the need for verification, but this appears to be something the site is intent on doing and much along the lines of the existing Certified Pro Peer Review system I described - which went down a bit like a lead balloon. The direction they seem to be taking is to “bulk up” the number of Certified Pros, for which you need to be a paid-up member and create a two-tier system, leaving outsourcers to assume/work out that ev... See more I think I’ve put forward as many solutions as I can think of to get round the need for verification, but this appears to be something the site is intent on doing and much along the lines of the existing Certified Pro Peer Review system I described - which went down a bit like a lead balloon. The direction they seem to be taking is to “bulk up” the number of Certified Pros, for which you need to be a paid-up member and create a two-tier system, leaving outsourcers to assume/work out that everyone outside the club carries a health warning. In the meantime you are encouraged to dob people in. That’ll fill in some time between now and death ▲ Collapse
| | | | | As much as I agree with many things you have been saying peer review is one of the worst things | Jul 12, 2012 |
I honestly think, it would be very unreliable. There are various versions of certain languages, not to discard the possibility that some people will be making wrongful accusations fueled by the feeling of revenge, or to get rid of competition. To Lisa.
[Edited at 2012-07-12 12:23 GMT]
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Samuel Murray wrote: Sheila Wilson wrote:
But I would certainly support "English native" searches being restricted to those whose only native language declared is English. That would solve Lisa's problem but not Phil's. Phil's problem (if I understand correctly) is a high number of ZH-EN translators who declare only English as their native language, when in fact their native language is really Chinese. I realise what I'm suggesting is also "baby and bathwater", but in the case of English there is a lot of bathwater -- in fact, there is so much bathwater that the baby is typically overlooked anyway. [Edited at 2012-07-06 17:44 GMT]
In one of my comments, I suggested to add questions for users to the "declaration" process. even with respect to verifying the one-native-language claims.
See page 45, top of page.
B
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:39
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER | @ LilianBoland | Jul 13, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
I honestly think, it would be very unreliable. There are various versions of certain languages, not to discard the possibility that some people will be making wrongful accusations fueled by the feeling of revenge, or to get rid of competition. To Lisa.
[Edited at 2012-07-12 12:23 GMT]
No point addressing me Lilian. I'm not sure if you understood but the Peer Review process is a system that is already in place for Certified Pros, who can at any time review colleagues in their language pairs (whether Certified Pros or not). This is not something I invented. If you don't like it you need to address this concern to the site staff.
[Edited at 2012-07-13 10:33 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-07-13 10:34 GMT]
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| I totally agree with Lilian! | Jul 13, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
I honestly think, it would be very unreliable. There are various versions of certain languages, not to discard the possibility that some people will be making wrongful accusations fueled by the feeling of revenge, or to get rid of competition. To Lisa.
[Edited at 2012-07-12 12:23 GMT]
Yes, I totally agree with Lilian.
And I won't "discard the possibility" mentioned by Lilian. I'm even sure that with peer review, I would have 99 % of chances of no longer being French .
Enjoy July 14th (for those who are still considered as my compatriots)
And a great week-end for other colleagues.
Catherine
| | | | | I absolutely agree with you Catherine | Jul 13, 2012 |
People who have lived in another country for an extended period of time, even just like ten, fifteen years, may sporadically make non-native mistakes in their L1, which can be perceived as a proof of not being a native speaker of L1, by the people who have lived most of their lives in the country where that language is spoken.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:39
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | I'm sorry but that's nonsense | Jul 13, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
People who have lived in another country for an extended period of time, even just like ten, fifteen years, may sporadically make non-native mistakes in their L1, which can be perceived as a proof of not being a native speaker of L1, by the people who have lived most of their lives in the country where that language is spoken.
Not if "the people who have lived most of their lives in the country where that language is spoken." are also native speakers. My father has not lived in Britain for more than 50 years, yet nobody would call him anything other than a native speaker of English. On the other hand, I have met countless people who have left their native country and moved elsewhere for 30, 40 or even 50+ years and who would never, ever pass for a native speaker of their adopted country. In fact, I'd go further and say that I cannot think of a single expatriate I have ever met, no matter how brilliant a linguist they were, who could pass for a native speaker of their adopted country - not one.
[Edited at 2012-07-13 18:33 GMT]
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LilianBoland wrote:
People who have lived in another country for an extended period of time, even just like ten, fifteen years, may sporadically make non-native mistakes in their L1, which can be perceived as a proof of not being a native speaker of L1, by the people who have lived most of their lives in the country where that language is spoken.
Right!
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| Lisa, I said it was totally different with English | Jul 13, 2012 |
English is all over, and it is really hard to forget certain construction or idioms, especially if the the people speak it at home. Many people speak the language of the place where they have been living for most of their lives at home, not necessarily their L1; at work, and everywhere else. Do you still think they won't make non-native mistakes from time to time? I think native speakers of English only, as their L1, cannot really experience that state when your L1 goes through partial attrition... See more English is all over, and it is really hard to forget certain construction or idioms, especially if the the people speak it at home. Many people speak the language of the place where they have been living for most of their lives at home, not necessarily their L1; at work, and everywhere else. Do you still think they won't make non-native mistakes from time to time? I think native speakers of English only, as their L1, cannot really experience that state when your L1 goes through partial attrition. Some people really have this absurd idea that L1 is like walking -- you cannot lose this ability unless something horrible happens in your life, and that people who were born in one country where they learned their L1, but left at an early age, will be able to translate philosophical discourses and books on quantum physics into that language. Some people even believe that children are born with their L1 and they inherit the language from their mothers, the speaking skills just not being developed,. They believe the language is already there -- this is why the babies would understand only the mommy's language. This absolutely absurd, but there some people who still believe it. If you don't walk for a while, you won't be able to walk perfectly either, at least for some time. I have heard about a Buddhist monk who was sitting for five years straight and he almost couldn't walk, but he trained himself back to walking, thank God.
If you were looking for some traits, mistakes and linguistic characteristics to find a spy, a dangerous felon, or people who have been sought after by the international police, there are some forensic methods to find out even who your grandparents were -- where they most likely came from, what social class, and things like that, required by the police investigation or some linguistic studies. Why would anyone want to do this to translators, unless for some nationalistic reasons. In the US there is no such a thing as native language other than English -- if someone is a US citizen, unless the person wanted to state it for some emotional reasons, to keep family traditions, for example. They may ask the person what is their preferred language, best language but not things that would really be considered as biased. You cannot even ask the person's age when interviewing people for a job, not to mention things of more personal nature, like religion, sexual preferences, family background. This would really be against the Constitution. There are studies related to L1, bilingual children, L1 attrition, and many other things, but not from a nationalistic point of view but simply for research purposes, to help those children do better in their lives. If you want to scrutinize people under the microscope, we might as well consider things like family background -- the parent's level of education. This might also have an influence on the child's language development. Children of parents with a higher level of education may have better linguistic skills than other children. Of course I would never opt for anything like that -- this is just to illustrate the point that various factors have influence on someone's language development and competence. This would be as biased as what you are talking about. I agree that people should not lie about anything, but your clear-cut definitions just don't have any proof in the linguistic reality. This is some make-believe world of perfect competence. I don't see any benefits in your proposed approach other than satisfaction of some almost nationalistic feelings. Sorry, but this is my impression." I have never seen anyone speak good English or write in good English if the person was not born in X, only people born in Hullaby England speak perfect English, even if they lived there for the first three months of their lives and never went to school there. They could perfectly translate your dissertation" Don't forget that many great writers of the English language were not born in England or the United States. This is also a very strict definition of language correctness here. Do you consider people who live in Edinburgh or Dublin native speakers of English? An English person once told me that it really felt very strange for English people to listen to American English, in general, because it felt as if the language had been kidnapped. I understand what you are feeling when you read things that might have been written by AE speakers, or even speakers of another language. I feel sorry for you, because it must be hard to have to deal with different versions of your L1, but there is really nothing that can stop that machine. Things have already happened and they cannot be turned back to where they originally were.
[Edited at 2012-07-13 20:08 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-07-14 10:06 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:39
Hebrew to English
| Again things are being conflated which shouldn't be | Jul 13, 2012 |
There is a difference (an abyss) between:
1. The output of a native speaker with some amount of L2 interference / language fade.
2. The output of a non-native speaker who never acquired the language as an L1 anyway.
| | | | | Hi, how do you know that Ty - this is not really based on any linguistic material | Jul 13, 2012 |
These are just some urban legends people want to believe in, just like that children are born with their L1, just a baby version, this is why you have to use diminutives when speaking to them. Some people even believe that German Shepherds only react to German, so it is advisable to use German words to train them. No, I am just joking, but almost.
[Edited at 2012-07-14 10:07 GMT]
| | | | | Everyone makes mistakes, naturally.... | Jul 13, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
People who have lived in another country for an extended period of time, even just like ten, fifteen years, may sporadically make non-native mistakes in their L1, which can be perceived as a proof of not being a native speaker of L1, by the people who have lived most of their lives in the country where that language is spoken.
... but quality of output is the key - that is what we produce and that is what clients pay us for. If there are "too many" mistakes (which should be quantifiable but has not been as yet AFAIK), then you should not, ceteris paribus, be translating into that language, no matter how long you have or haven't lived in a country where that language is spoken.
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Ty Kendall wrote:
There is a difference (an abyss) between:
1. The output of a native speaker with some amount of L2 interference / language fade.
2. The output of a non-native speaker who never acquired the language as an L1 anyway.
There doesn't have to be an "abyss" of a difference, but, in principle, I agree with you. That will mostly be the case.
As long as #2 in your example has acquired excellent 2nd language skills and works with a # 1 (or perfect NS) editor, you should get an excellent product.
Needless to say, excellent knowledge in the subject field is also required.
Bernhard
[Edited at 2012-07-14 23:04 GMT]
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LilianBoland wrote:
People who have lived in another country for an extended period of time, even just like ten, fifteen years, may sporadically make non-native mistakes in their L1, which can be perceived as a proof of not being a native speaker of L1, by the people who have lived most of their lives in the country where that language is spoken.
Wow. I don´t know what else to say. That´s so not true... But well, it seems we got to a point where one has to deny native speakers qualifications in order to justify one´s (or others) own disqualification as a native speaker. Wow. Really? Wow...
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 05:39
Member (2007)
English
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| Perception and claims can be totally without substance | Jul 14, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
People who have lived in another country for an extended period of time, even just like ten, fifteen years, may sporadically make non-native mistakes in their L1, which can be perceived as a proof of not being a native speaker of L1, by the people who have lived most of their lives in the country where that language is spoken.
People judge other people all the time. I've had French adult learners of English tell me, in all seriousness, that my English is flawed. Why? Well, these are two "faults" which I appear to make all the time:
1) I (/offen/) pronounce the "t" in the word "often";
2) I write "centre" and not "center";
3) I write "14/07/2012" instead of "07/14/2012".
Of course, most sensible students simply query these "oddities" and so learn something about the language. But there have been several in the last 13 years who have taken me to task, and been quite adamant that I don't know things about my own language that they know.
So, let's not forget that there's an enormous difference between claiming and proving. I believe that the vast majority of us who want ProZ.com to regain some credibility would be happy to weed out just the totally obvious lies about native language. As far as I'm concerned, people who claim to be native speakers, and who write impeccably in that language (or even simply naturally), should be awarded the benefit of the doubt. No question in my mind about witch hunts etc. I don't want a site where you have to jump through hoops proving this, that and the other. I simply want a site where people tell the truth and can deliver the goods. I know that what Lilian says about them not getting second jobs is right, so they don't scare me one jot as competitors, but I am nevertheless thoroughly ashamed to have them declared as my peers on this site.
Sheila
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Should “native language” claims be verified? | Anycount & Translation Office 3000 | Translation Office 3000
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