| Stran v tématu: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Autor vlákna: XXXphxxx (X)
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Cetacea 
Švýcarsko
Local time: 06:00
angličtina -> němčina
+ ...
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: A "Featured Translator" from earlier today: http://www.proz.com/profile/627468 One "non-verified" icon. I thought one declared native language automatically granted you "verified" status in that language? The more you look at the system, the more you see the mess it's in.
When you click on the icon of that particular translator, the pop-up window tells you that she declared two native languages: Bulgarian and Bulgarian... Some kind of (software) error for sure.
As for your previous example, I suppose the translator in question hasn't realized yet there are changes being made. The same thing happened to me: The yellow icon I used to have for my one native language (German) had disappeared a couple of weeks ago, and when I re-declared my native language as requested, the icon remained gray, the reason being that as a non-paying member, I might create several profiles, claiming a different native language each time.
Well, I used to be a paying member for a number of years, but stopped when site quality started to plunge. The way things are looking now, I'm not going to whip out my credit card again any time soon...
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
Velká Británie
Local time: 05:00
portugalština -> angličtina
+ ...
AUTOR TÉMATU | Problem fixed | Jul 31, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: Returning briefly to the subject of verified/non-verified icons and the double verified icon that Angie found the other day; here is a profile with no native speaker icon at all: http://www.proz.com/profile/103909 Apologies to the owner of the profile, you are being used by way of example to illustrate site anomalies. Just another bug?
So now that profile, which earlier today had no icon at all (yellow or grey), now appears with a verified yellow one. How did that happen? Did site staff fix it or do these things just randomly come and go???
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
Velká Británie
Local time: 05:00
portugalština -> angličtina
+ ...
AUTOR TÉMATU | You're not the only one | Jul 31, 2012 |
Cetacea wrote:
Well, I used to be a paying member for a number of years, but stopped when site quality started to plunge. The way things are looking now, I'm not going to whip out my credit card again any time soon...
If there's one thing this thread has revealed it's that the situation is quite a bit worse than I realised when I first posted the question.
| | | | psicutrinius
Španělsko
Local time: 06:00
Člen (2008)
španělština -> angličtina
+ ...
| So there is extra work for the staff... | Jul 31, 2012 |
Besides and beyond anything that might be done about vetting/certification of native languages, it now seems that checking the CURRENT status is needed, right now, in view of the quite weird examples seen?.
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XXXphxxx (X)
Velká Británie
Local time: 05:00
portugalština -> angličtina
+ ...
AUTOR TÉMATU | Time for a re-think | Jul 31, 2012 |
Therefore an EXCELLENT opportunity to rip it up and start again
| | | | Samuel Murray
Nizozemsko
Local time: 06:00
Člen (2006)
angličtina -> afrikánština
+ ...
| Boycott and ilk | Jul 31, 2012 |
Texte Style wrote:
@ Samuel your English is great, I was surprised to see in another thread you misspelled boycott.
I'm more likely to misspell words like that because they don't follow the normal pattern of English spelling. I think a spelling test with such words would help pick out non-natives more than a spelling test of words that follow the normal pattern of English spelling.
| | | | | Samuel's English... | Jul 31, 2012 |
Sorry for abusing Samuel and Liliana as examples...
Samuel's English is excellent. Anyone achieving that level of competence in a foreign language should be commended. Others with half his skill would (and on Proz DO) claim it as native. But he's "honest" about it, and I very much respect that. Very.
Liliana's English is excellent too. Highly commendable. Not quite good enough though, if claimed as native... See more Sorry for abusing Samuel and Liliana as examples...
Samuel's English is excellent. Anyone achieving that level of competence in a foreign language should be commended. Others with half his skill would (and on Proz DO) claim it as native. But he's "honest" about it, and I very much respect that. Very.
Liliana's English is excellent too. Highly commendable. Not quite good enough though, if claimed as native. Not in my book. Too many giveaway mistakes.
I thought that was what this discussion is about. Honestly stating native languages?
I find it very difficult to respect people who claim a native language when it is so obvioulsy not the case (irrespective of any documents etc. they have at their disposal). We're linguists, remember!?
Cilian (native speaker of English, pretty good German) ▲ Collapse
| | | | LilianNekipelov
Spojené státy americké
Local time: 00:00
ruština -> angličtina
+ ...
| English is not my L1 -- it is my second native language | Jul 31, 2012 |
It would be unpatriotic not to claim the language of the county where you have been living for most of your life, the language you have virtually all your higher education in, and the only language you have ever used in any type of work, other than translation or interpreting -- where you have to use both, as your second native language. Don't call the language you have in mind a native language -- call it L1 - the language someone learned within the first two years of one's life. Native languag... See more It would be unpatriotic not to claim the language of the county where you have been living for most of your life, the language you have virtually all your higher education in, and the only language you have ever used in any type of work, other than translation or interpreting -- where you have to use both, as your second native language. Don't call the language you have in mind a native language -- call it L1 - the language someone learned within the first two years of one's life. Native language has many definitions -- it is first of all the language you identify with, and secondly it could be your ethnic language, not necessarily the best language. So I think, you really have to use a different name for the language you have in mind. Regardless, I don't think a person who has no college education in their L1 can translate into L1. Many children born here, who are teenagers, whose parents speak a different language at home have more borrowed constructions from another language or improperly used words than I do, or some of the people on this forum do -- people not born in the US. I don't want to mention any names, because it would not be appropriate. How would you classify such children, born in the US: as native speakers of other language? Many teachers in US -- high schools, even English teachers, and college professors were not born in English speaking countries. So, you would really have to call the language you are interested in something else, most likely L1. This language might be of interest, if you were looking for voiceover artists, because it is really true that the earlier you learn the language, the better the accent. How many L1 speakers who have lived for most of their lives in the country where L1 is spoken, know really some very difficult languages as well as the people who have been exposed to many languages. Not too many I think. I don't believe that a person who had such difficult language as Russian or Chinese for four years in college would be able to translate from them, anything other than a birth certificate or a letter, perhaps some very general texts. ▲ Collapse
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Sheila Wilson
Španělsko
Local time: 05:00
Člen (2007)
angličtina
+ ...
LilianBoland wrote:
I don't think a person who has no college education in their L1 can translate into L1.
Do you really mean that? What about the countless numbers of people who never went to college, in any language? I'm now 56 and when I left school I was offered a place at two universities (one being the School of Oriental and African Studies) but family circumstances made it impossible for me to accept either.
I know that nowadays people swear by degrees (no I'm not talking about degrees of swearing here), and seem to think people without one are only fit to sweep the streets, but 35 years of professional life, following 4 different career paths and living in 4 countries must count for something, surely. I still regret not going to SOAS, but I don't believe my ability to translate from French to English has been hampered by the lack of a degree.
| | | | LilianNekipelov
Spojené státy americké
Local time: 00:00
ruština -> angličtina
+ ...
| If some people never went to college they should not work as translators | Aug 1, 2012 |
I just meant for the purposes of translation. Can you teach, if you have not completed certain programs?Is that your claim, Sheila, that a person without university education can be a good translator? Perhaps in the old times, when some people had just high school education -- in 1920s, as an example, where they were required to study two or three languages thoroughly -- they might have been able to translate. I don't know. There might be some excepts, but really very few.
There... See more I just meant for the purposes of translation. Can you teach, if you have not completed certain programs?Is that your claim, Sheila, that a person without university education can be a good translator? Perhaps in the old times, when some people had just high school education -- in 1920s, as an example, where they were required to study two or three languages thoroughly -- they might have been able to translate. I don't know. There might be some excepts, but really very few.
There might be exceptions, Sheila, especially in the case of people who did not get a chance to get college education due to some personal problems, or wars, and they had really good high school education, some courses -- they have studied a lot on their own and had a lot of experience, but such people would be very rare, really more like one person in 100,000.
I am just convinced, Sheila, you might be one of the exceptions. Some college experience is really necessary, I think, for most translators.
[Edited at 2012-08-01 11:07 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
Velká Británie
Local time: 05:00
hebrejština -> angličtina
| Unpatriotic? ....Live long and prosper (Spock) | Aug 1, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
It would be unpatriotic not to claim the language of the county where you have been living for most of your life
...despite the actual language level - marvellous.
the language someone learned within the first two years of one's life.
Nobody has mastered their L1 by the time they are 24 months old. I can assure you.
Native language has many definitions
Yes, some of them more outlandish than others.
it is first of all the language you identify with
This is a very poor criterion for "native language" and I'm surprised you list it first. See my Klingon example but for variety I'll mix it up a little...
I might identify with the Vulcan language because it is the language of a logical and enlightened race. I might feel an affinity there, I might even have cosmetic surgery to give me pointed ears. It still won't make Vulcan my native language.
Edited for typo
[Edited at 2012-08-01 12:31 GMT]
| | | | LilianNekipelov
Spojené státy americké
Local time: 00:00
ruština -> angličtina
+ ...
| Yes, it would be absolutely unpatriotic-- to Ty | Aug 1, 2012 |
My English level is very good -- I agree that you may find some structures that are a result of language interference, since I have lived in different places, especially when I am in a hurry and don't edit my posts, but even within the Unites States, the language varies to a significant extent. However, even the people whose English might be not perfect, but have spend many years in this country, and are citizens of this country, or perhaps have been even born here, have the right to claim Engli... See more My English level is very good -- I agree that you may find some structures that are a result of language interference, since I have lived in different places, especially when I am in a hurry and don't edit my posts, but even within the Unites States, the language varies to a significant extent. However, even the people whose English might be not perfect, but have spend many years in this country, and are citizens of this country, or perhaps have been even born here, have the right to claim English as their native language, even if they cannot claim it as their L1 - the language acquired within the first three years of one's life, which is not necessarily the best language the person speaks. Native language is a slightly outdated term in the times of vast populations migrations. It is hardly ever used in the US. People are usually asked about the language of their choice, the one they are most comfortable with. The term native language is loaded with ethnicity issues.
Yes, Vulcan ma really be your native language, if you master it quite well, and you identify with it. English will stay your L1. In many cases L1 and someone's native language are the same, but in many cases they are not.
[Edited at 2012-08-01 11:45 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Cetacea
Švýcarsko
Local time: 06:00
angličtina -> němčina
+ ...
| Curioser and curioser | Aug 1, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
It would be unpatriotic not to claim the language of the county where you have been living for most of your life
You're joking, right? Now native language is a question of patriotism?! My clients at least don't give a hoot about which flag I raise in my garden. Strangely enough, they're more interested in my mastering the languages and the fields that I offer services in.
the language someone learned within the first two years of one's life.
As Ty points out, nobody has mastered their L1 by the time they are 24 months old. There are a couple of German sounds, for example, that a two-year old can't even pronounce yet. As for his/her syntax and vocabulary, I won't even go there.
LilianBoland wrote:
I don't think a person who has no college education in their L1 can translate into L1.
College education does not a translator make. I know some brilliant translators who never went to college, and I know a lot of former college students who are useless. In more than one profession, I might add...
Ty Kendall wrote:
I might identify with the Vulcan language because it is the language of a logical and englightened race. I might feel an affinity there, I might even have cosmetic surgery to give me pointed ears. It still won't make Vulcan my native language.
And it also wouldn't enable you to raise that eyebrow... But it must be Vulcan stoicism for sure that allows you to hang in there for so long.
| | | | LilianNekipelov
Spojené státy americké
Local time: 00:00
ruština -> angličtina
+ ...
| No, I am not joking at all | Aug 1, 2012 |
Most clients don't know exactly what they want while choosing the native language option -- they just have learned somewhere, or overheard, that this might be something good. I don't believe they have a clear idea what they really want when choosing this option. I think they should be more precise and just say:
-- we only want the people whose L1 is X
-- whose parents spoke X
-- who have lived for most of their lives in the country where X is spoken
-- people who h... See more Most clients don't know exactly what they want while choosing the native language option -- they just have learned somewhere, or overheard, that this might be something good. I don't believe they have a clear idea what they really want when choosing this option. I think they should be more precise and just say:
-- we only want the people whose L1 is X
-- whose parents spoke X
-- who have lived for most of their lives in the country where X is spoken
-- people who have college education in X
and who have perfect competence in the source language.
Then they should wait five days, and repost.
Or, perhaps they may find one or two people like that in a very few language pairs. ▲ Collapse
| | | | inkweaver
Německo
Local time: 06:00
francouzština -> němčina
+ ...
| Will have to stop translating immediately | Aug 1, 2012 |
Since my tertiary education was not in German but in English, I assume I should stop translating immediately. Or could I claim English as my native language from now on? Not really an option, I think.
So yes, I think I will need to give up... Quite a shame really, I do enjoy translating and I thought that my clients were happy with my work, but I guess my knowledge of German just won't do.
| | | | | Stran v tématu: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Should “native language” claims be verified? | Anycount & Translation Office 3000 | Translation Office 3000
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