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Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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XXXphxxx (X) 
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:04
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Lazy so-and-so | Oct 1, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
So... what have you guys been talking about for the past 25 pages?
Go back and read You think this thread has its own secretary now?
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Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:04
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
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| May God protect me from gloomy saints. | Oct 1, 2012 |
It's official. I have reclaimed my second native language and gone back to having two native languages once again. Phew, I feel whole again.
Michael
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XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:04
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Michael Beijer wrote:
It's official. I have reclaimed my second native language and gone back to having two native languages once again. Phew, I feel whole again.
Michael
I'm sure it'll go down well with your colleagues.
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| Hi. Jose. I would think this were machine translation -- the book about Jesus. | Oct 1, 2012 |
I think somebody who has just graduated from high school, and learned English for four years would have done a better job. This might be personal connections -- sometimes it is common in some publishing circles that certain people with really high education who have no talent to do literary translation handle translation of highly sophisticated philosophical texts, and the outcome might be similar to this one. If you don't understand the concepts in any language, you cannot translate it.
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Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:04
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
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Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: Michael Beijer wrote:
It's official. I have reclaimed my second native language and gone back to having two native languages once again. Phew, I feel whole again.
Michael I'm sure it'll go down well with your colleagues.
Thanks Lisa,
I'll keep my eye out for rooftop snipers while walking my dog this afternoon...
Michael
[Edited at 2012-10-01 11:03 GMT]
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Suzan Hamer
Netherlands
Local time: 23:04
English
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| Perhaps it's due to a literal interpretation of "native speaker"? | Oct 1, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
... The impression one has (correct me if I'm wrong) is that there is an inordinate number of NL native speakers who have taken on EN native speaker status when it is more than evident from their very profile that their English is below par. Not to put too fine a point on it, this problem would appear to be rife amongst NL native speakers, plus I understand it comes tinged with a certain arrogance, so I can see why it might therefore be irksome to EN native speakers in those language pairs.... It does make me wonder why the Dutch contingent actually feel the need to misrepresent themselves?
Sorry I have not been able to read every post in this thread (have we beat the record for longest thread ever yet?), so I may not be using "mother tongue" and "native speaker" in ways that have been thrashed out here. Also, I was not aware that there are NL native speakers passing themselves off as EN native speakers until I read it here.
As an American born, raised, and educated in the US, who has lived in the Netherlands for more than 20 years, I often meet Dutch people who indeed SPEAK English at a native or near-native level. However, I find that though they may speak English at that level, their writing leaves much to be desired. I see it in my own daughter, who I would say has two mother tongues, Dutch and English. She never makes mistakes when speaking English, but often does when writing; although she grew up with English as the language spoken at home, she was not educated in English (other than the English all Dutch students are taught at school).
Perhaps some Dutch speakers of English do not intend to be deceptive, but base their self-description as "native speakers" on the fact that they have been complimented by true native speakers as "sounding English" or "being American?" I have often heard native speakers (born and raised in UK or USA), tell Dutch English speakers that their English is perfect, that it's hard (or even impossible) to tell that they are Dutch when they speak English, and so on.
Just a thought. Forgive me if it has been brought up previously.
[Edited at 2012-10-01 16:08 GMT]
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XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:04
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Suzan Hamer wrote:
Perhaps some Dutch speakers of English do not intend to be deceptive, but base their self-description as "native speakers" on the fact that they have been complimented by true native speakers as "sounding English" or "being American?" I have often heard native speakers (born and raised in UK or USA), tell Dutch English speakers that their English is perfect, that it's hard (or even impossible) to tell that they are Dutch when they speak English, and so on.
Just a thought. Forgive me if it has been brought up previously.
Although I'm sure there are EN native speakers who have been told that they sound like Portuguese, Chinese, Dutch... native speakers, yet I can't say in all these discussions that I've come across a single EN native speaker mispresenting him/herself. It would be interesting to know if anyone else has.
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| native speaking | Oct 1, 2012 |
@ Suzan. I've noticed this too and it's one reason why I don't think a 'native test by phone or powwow' verification procedure (as has been suggested by several in this thread) would be effective. It's apparently not hard for some to mimic nativeness perfectly in speech, but you'll always catch them out on their writing. Come to think of it, this describes perfectly my command of the Dutch language. I would definitely pass a test as a native speaker of Dutch, but fail as a native writer.
<... See more @ Suzan. I've noticed this too and it's one reason why I don't think a 'native test by phone or powwow' verification procedure (as has been suggested by several in this thread) would be effective. It's apparently not hard for some to mimic nativeness perfectly in speech, but you'll always catch them out on their writing. Come to think of it, this describes perfectly my command of the Dutch language. I would definitely pass a test as a native speaker of Dutch, but fail as a native writer.
Regards,
Olly ▲ Collapse
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Susan's observations hit more than one nail on the head and they apply universally, ie, not only to speakers in NL.
Lots of people 'can english good'.
Will this thread die on its own?
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XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:04
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I've worked with gazillions of Dutch during my long translation career and in my previous life working in shipping. Many of them undoubtedly spoke excellent English but I do not recall one, not a single one, that I would ever have mistaken for an English native speaker.
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I've been fooled at least once at the Irish pub. Girl had only lived in Dublin for a year but I didn't suspect a thing. Admittedly we didn't talk long. Maybe I'd had too much Guinness. But I'm living proof that one can become a native speaker of Dutch after the age of 18 because I can assure you that if you were Dutch and we met then you wouldn't think I wasn't.
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Olly Pekelharing wrote:
I've been fooled at least once at the Irish pub. Girl had only lived in Dublin for a year but I didn't suspect a thing. Admittedly we didn't talk long. Maybe I'd had too much Guinness. But I'm living proof that one can become a native speaker of Dutch after the age of 18 because I can assure you that if you were Dutch and we met then you wouldn't think I wasn't.
Just out of curiosity,
You mean to say you were older than 18 when you first were exposed to Dutch spoken and written by native speakers of Dutch?
N.B. I do see you don't consider yourself a native speaker of Dutch.
Bernhard
[Edited at 2012-10-01 12:46 GMT]
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XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:04
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | You know you're not one | Oct 1, 2012 |
Olly Pekelharing wrote:
I'm living proof that one can become a native speaker of Dutch after the age of 18 because I can assure you that if you were Dutch and we met then you wouldn't think I wasn't.
As you said yourself, you can't write Dutch like a native speaker. Equally, everyone thinks I'm Brazilian when they speak to me, but I know I'm not and I can't write Portuguese like a native. We know what we are, as should most people.
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Yes. I understand my parents still spoke Dutch occasionally when I was very young, though I don't remember it, so I may have subliminally picked some up, but I couldn't speak or understand a word of it when I moved over here just after I turned 18. I literally couldn't order a beer.
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