| A témához tartozó oldalak: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Téma indítója: XXXphxxx (X)
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XXXphxxx (X) 
Egyesült Királyság
Local time: 21:05
portugál - angol
+ ...
TÉMAINDÍTÓ | Crikey and crumbs | Sep 17, 2012 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
It will be useful to keep in mind that not all natives of a language develop native-level proficiency in their language.
Did you mean to say that?
| | | | Ty Kendall
Egyesült Királyság
Local time: 21:05
héber - angol
Balasubramaniam L. wrote: Phil Hand wrote:
For once, I could actually accept something Mr B says. His definition of native language - the language in which you are most proficient - I could accept that. Because, like I said, it's a contingent fact about humans that we are most proficient in the language(s) we learned as children. It's not usable as a working definition, because to test someone's native language, you'd have to test all their languages, and see which one they did best in - major hassle! But I don't disagree with it. You would actually need to test the proficiency in only the claimed language, not all the languages learned by that person in childhood. But I agree that doing even that would be beyond the capabilities of a site like proz.com.
Nope, you'd have to test them all, otherwise you are again relying on self-assessment. You are relying on them being honest when they say to you "I speak 4 languages but I promise I'm most proficient in this one, so only test this one".
[Edited at 2012-09-17 08:16 GMT]
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
Egyesült Királyság
Local time: 21:05
portugál - angol
+ ...
TÉMAINDÍTÓ | Who's Bob? ;-) | Sep 17, 2012 |
Jenny Forbes wrote: Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
Will site staff, nay the site founder, give this issue attention and respond to our multiple support requests before we reach 200k views? I hear you, Lisa. I'm prepared to bet 50p on their replying by the 200,000th view. I might even win another ten bob. Mind you, I expect they're still asleep over the pond at the moment. Love, Jenny
I'll raise you another 50p.
| | | | | put me in for a Robert or two as well | Sep 17, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: Jenny Forbes wrote: Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
Will site staff, nay the site founder, give this issue attention and respond to our multiple support requests before we reach 200k views? I hear you, Lisa. I'm prepared to bet 50p on their replying by the 200,000th view. I might even win another ten bob. Mind you, I expect they're still asleep over the pond at the moment. Love, Jenny I'll raise you another 50p.
Not sure how much I want to bet at this point, but I do think that it may be time for the site founder put in his two bobs worth. Before the snows close in on Syracuse.
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Giles Watson
Olaszország
Local time: 22:05
olasz - angol
Az Ő emlékére: | A florin for his thoughts | Sep 17, 2012 |
writeaway wrote:
Not sure how much I want to bet at this point, but I do think that it may be time for the site founder put in his two bobs worth.
Perhaps we should offer Henry a special exchange rate for his two cents
| | | | | A promising statement | Sep 17, 2012 |
Michele Fauble wrote: José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
IF the native speakerness attribute of a person relative to a language fails to hold a solid correlation with reliably better translation;
The correlation may not hold for the global quality of the translation, but it does hold for one parameter of that quality (or lack thereof) — nativeness of language. An excellent translation is the result of several factors, such as subject knowledge, translation skill and experience, and native language proficiency. A label for global translation quality might be desirable, but native language is not that label.
This (above) makes sense!
Therefore it stands to reason that while some non-native-speakers may exceptionally deliver higher translation quality than some native speakers, such assessments must be made by no other than truly native speakers, living in that language's homeland for some considerable time just before they make it.
We are still left with the need to define the native speaker of X-ese, now the umpire, no longer the subject. A workable definition could be a person who either was born in X-land or moved in there before the age of 2, and who lived there for at least 3/4 of the time and studied there, until they turned 18.
| | | | | The only thing I would like to add, because I am not really interested | Sep 17, 2012 |
in discussions just for the Art's sake on this subject anymore, is that there should not be any native language category in this form to choose from when creating profiles, but rather a place to describe your linguistic situation, just in a sentence or two. (Born in Ireland, all my life spoke English, educated at Oxford University, also fluent in Gaelic, spoken at home -- just as an example) I am really against categorizing people. Otherwise, whatever there is now is really the best it can get, ... See more in discussions just for the Art's sake on this subject anymore, is that there should not be any native language category in this form to choose from when creating profiles, but rather a place to describe your linguistic situation, just in a sentence or two. (Born in Ireland, all my life spoke English, educated at Oxford University, also fluent in Gaelic, spoken at home -- just as an example) I am really against categorizing people. Otherwise, whatever there is now is really the best it can get, but people should understand that this is just a generalization about someone's linguistic background, and more information might be needed, what is usually to be found in CVs.
[Edited at 2012-09-17 11:35 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
Egyesült Királyság
Local time: 21:05
héber - angol
| A few factual concerns.... | Sep 17, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
Swedish and Norwegian in the spoken form are not mutually intelligible at all.
I’m no authority on the Nordic languages but from what I’ve been told this isn’t true. Perhaps one of our colleagues working in these languages can better inform us; not that it’s relevant in the slightest.
no one can invent a native language language definition, especially someone who is not a professor of linguistics
Again with that pedestal for Linguistics professors?
In the US, it really not that often used anymore for things related to studying or employment -- I checked….not really in relation to anything connected to employment or services.
Obviously didn't check quite hard enough:
“applicants will be required to take language proficiency tests in their native language” – this is from an EMPLOYMENT advert for the CIA (https://www.cia.gov/careers/opportunities/support-professional/foreign-language-instructors.html). The CIA were quite American the last time I checked, I could probably find a 1000 more similar examples if I had the time or the inclination.
because I am not really interested
Could’ve fooled me.
[Edited at 2012-09-17 12:27 GMT]
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Michele Fauble
Egyesült Államok
Local time: 13:05
Tag (2006 óta)
norvég - angol
+ ...
Ty Kendall wrote: "Lilian Boland" wrote:
Swedish and Norwegian in the spoken form are not mutually intelligible at all.
I’m no authority on the Nordic languages but from what I’ve been told this isn’t true. Perhaps one of our colleagues working in these languages can better inform us; not that it’s relevant in the slightest.
As is often the case, Lillian gets the facts wrong. In this case egregiously wrong.
Anyone who would like to see Norwegians, Swedes, and even the occasional Dane sitting around talking to each other in their native languages can take a look at Skavlan http://www.svtplay.se/video/295490/del-2-av-12a , a Swedish talk show with a Norwegian host.
| | | | | Proz replies! | Sep 17, 2012 |
Yesterday, I asked Proz to define what it means/understands by "native language", so that those of us who think native language claims should be verified can proceed further with our request.
I've just received the following prompt reply, which I quote verbatim and in full:
"Thank you for contacting the support center.
Rather than imposing a definition of "native", the ProZ.com Native Speaker Credential program leaves the definition to members. When declaring one's own s... See more Yesterday, I asked Proz to define what it means/understands by "native language", so that those of us who think native language claims should be verified can proceed further with our request.
I've just received the following prompt reply, which I quote verbatim and in full:
"Thank you for contacting the support center.
Rather than imposing a definition of "native", the ProZ.com Native Speaker Credential program leaves the definition to members. When declaring one's own single language, a definition is not required (http://www.proz.com/faq/2383#2383).
In the case of those declaring multiple native languages, the speech will be deemed native if several other ProZ.com Native Speakers find it to be native (according to their own definitions).
For more information, please see the following: http://proz.com/faq/764#764.
Hope this explains,
Best regards, [signed]"
A toothless criterion by which to judge a claim about native language or, indeed, about anything else, IMAO.
So, as I and many doubtless expected, the ball is back in our court. It seems to be up to those of us who want a more stringent verification criterion to define what we mean by "native language" and how we think it should be implemented.
Heigh ho. It was just a shot.
Jenny ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
Egyesült Királyság
Local time: 21:05
héber - angol
| Disappointing but not unexpected | Sep 17, 2012 |
Jenny Forbes wrote:
Yesterday, I asked Proz to define what it means/understands by "native language", so that those of us who think native language claims should be verified can proceed further with our request.
I've just received the following prompt reply, which I quote verbatim and in full:
...
Heigh ho. It was just a shot.
Jenny
It seems that spot on the fence is rather comfy, hence the reluctance to get off it.
| | | | | Ahem.... could've told you that | Sep 17, 2012 |
Errr, when you actually use the links in Jenny's post, you will find the same exact language there:
Proz FAQ 8.6:
8.6 - What definition of "native speaker" is used?
Rather than imposing a definition of "native", the PNS program leaves the definition to members. When declaring one's own single language, a definition is not required.
In the case of those declaring multiple native languages, the speech will be deemed native if several other ProZ.com Native Speakers find it to be native (according to their own definitions.)"
Proz FAQ 8.3:
"8.3 - How do I get the credential in more than one language?
A member who reports having only one native language is assumed to be a native speaker of that language, and is not required to demonstrate it. However, members who report multiple native languages will in the future be asked to demonstrate their native speech in each language before other native speakers of those languages. Until this has been accomplished, a black and gray icon will be associated with the unconfirmed native languages."
(*cough* told you so *cough* previous post)
Jenny Forbes wrote: I've just received the following prompt reply, which I quote verbatim and in full: "Thank you for contacting the support center. Rather than imposing a definition of "native", the ProZ.com Native Speaker Credential program leaves the definition to members. When declaring one's own single language, a definition is not required ( http://www.proz.com/faq/2383#2383). In the case of those declaring multiple native languages, the speech will be deemed native if several other ProZ.com Native Speakers find it to be native (according to their own definitions). For more information, please see the following: http://proz.com/faq/764#764.
[Edited at 2012-09-18 02:45 GMT]
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| Very sorry, Michele, but it is not true about spoken Scandinavian languages | Sep 17, 2012 |
even certain varieties of Norwegian are hard to understand for the people speaking the more standard version (if there are any standards in Norway -- the bokmal). Written texts -- you could understand most, except the nuances.
Just another small digression -- something that came to my mind. There was a Polish movie when I was a child -- a comedy where the main character -- a man disguised as a woman, was checking to percentage of sugar in sugar -- in reality making illegal alcoho... See more even certain varieties of Norwegian are hard to understand for the people speaking the more standard version (if there are any standards in Norway -- the bokmal). Written texts -- you could understand most, except the nuances.
Just another small digression -- something that came to my mind. There was a Polish movie when I was a child -- a comedy where the main character -- a man disguised as a woman, was checking to percentage of sugar in sugar -- in reality making illegal alcohol. Checking the degree of nativeness in nativeness seems exactly like that. I am not sure what the result might be -- I hope not something like an explosion, what happened, I think, in his case.
http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/01/23/the-mutual-intelligibility-of-the-scandanavian-languages/
[Edited at 2012-09-17 17:46 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Do tell us more about Scandinavia, Lilian.
| | | | | Oh, but Jenny, | Sep 17, 2012 |
You should click on the link kindly provided, which gives us gems of expert opinion on Scandinavian languages such as "Danish is a butt ugly language really". Clearly a reliable source should you wish to investigate further, but sadly rather irrelevant to the present debate.
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