| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Is it possible for an adult to learn a new language perfectly? Thread poster: Balasubramaniam L.
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CMJ_Trans (X)
Local time: 20:55
French to English
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| my experience..... | Oct 30, 2006 |
I was born and brought up in a typical English family speaking only English as a child. Then, at age 9, the local authorities deemed that I was too young to move on to secondary education, even though I had completed junior school with brio and I found myself repeating a year with nothing more to learn. At the time I was fed up to say the least but I had the luck to have teachers who started me out on French and Latin to give me an intellectual challenge (I suppose it helped that my mother was ... See more I was born and brought up in a typical English family speaking only English as a child. Then, at age 9, the local authorities deemed that I was too young to move on to secondary education, even though I had completed junior school with brio and I found myself repeating a year with nothing more to learn. At the time I was fed up to say the least but I had the luck to have teachers who started me out on French and Latin to give me an intellectual challenge (I suppose it helped that my mother was a teacher at the same school). My interest in foreign languages dates from then.
At 14 I started to study ancient Greek, at 15 German and at 16 Spanish and went on to do a university degree in languages followed by a post-graduate course in translation/interpreting.
In the years that followed, I learned Italian and Portuguese (sponsored by my employers) and "bahasa indonesia" when living in the country.
While still in my twenties, I found all this relatively easy.
Things got harder when I started learning Russian over a decade later.....
I have recently spent 5 years in Belgium and, even though I didn't need to, decided to do a crash course in Flemish. Grammatically I had no problem but, even today, I cannot get the accent right. I cannot say a sentence without someone laughing at me. Some motivation! I suspect I am just too old to get my jaw or whatever it is round the language. I can read it, translate from it, follow other people's conversations. Full stop.
And of course I have now forgotten most of my bahasa, for lack of use, and the same could be said of my Russian. The only languages I am not losing are those that I use in some way, shape or form more or less all the time.
So I would say that an adult can learn a new language, especially if living in or constantly exposed to it but that, the older you get, the harder it is..... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 20:55
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| Well, we can only speculate... | Oct 30, 2006 |
Balasubramaniam wrote:
Many people claim that they learned six or seven languages in adult life. Is this possible? Is it possible to learn even one new language properly after you have crossed the threshold of 13 or15 years of age? Here we are not talking about rudimentary knowledge of a few sentences or a basic vocabulary of a language, but near-native competency.
Well, we can only speculate, but I think we must distinguish between various levels of multilinguality. My wife can hold a long conversation on almost any general topic in three languages, and she is a teacher in two languages that are not her mother language, but don't ask her to write a business letter in any of those languages (including her mother language).
Samuel
| | | | Ruxi
German to Romanian
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| Pronunciation a.o | Oct 30, 2006 |
I agree there is a problem with the accents, but this has nothing to do with learning a language.
As I said before, you need musical hear to learn a language good, including the pronunciation.
Also I believe it is a matter of some other aspects which I can not explain.
I have noticed, e.g, that people from slavonic countries have a special problem with foreign language. They have a very pregnant accent of their language upon any foreign language. Most of them you can here that ... See more I agree there is a problem with the accents, but this has nothing to do with learning a language.
As I said before, you need musical hear to learn a language good, including the pronunciation.
Also I believe it is a matter of some other aspects which I can not explain.
I have noticed, e.g, that people from slavonic countries have a special problem with foreign language. They have a very pregnant accent of their language upon any foreign language. Most of them you can here that they are slavonic.
Even after tens of years they still have it. I don't want to offend here anybody, and I can not explain it, but it is true.
Then every language has some special pronunciation and there are also different accents and pronunciations in regions of the same country.
E.g French people have a special hard "rr", the Germans have another kind of "r" aso.
The Spanish have that special "s" and "z"pronunciation. I never noticed the special"r" you were talking about.
Foreign people either learn the literar language of a country, or a certain dialect (including pronunciation) from the region they moved and live in.
I would say that there are a lot of theories in this world who are actually not true and are changing in time. Such theories are often used for selection in different fields.
e.g: the healthy diets (the well known piramide is now not correct anymore), the theory with age and pregnancy (so many women kep getting pregnant after 40 and 50, even on natural ways and in many countries there still are old restrictions of age when adopting, or using artificial methods) aso.
In translation field there is now the theory that you have to be native speaker, or that you can learn a foreign language at a certain age. This theories are used for selection purpose and are discriminations.
I gave up believing in theories.
Coming back to our original subject, I would say that one can learn a foreign language at any age, if he/she has some certain capacities. It is difficult to learn things as an adult in every field, but you can do it if you have the interest.
I am still learning new things every day and will have to learn a lot more, till death.
Noone will ever be native speaker in a foreign language, but very close to and it is not even so important, not even for translation purposes.
As a translator you don't need pronunciation, as a interpreter you may not need to write correct.
Finally, I know that a lot of native speakers do use it incorrect, from the begining (if the parents don't talk correct, they will learn it in the same way and not even school can help). ▲ Collapse
| | | | l_pon (X)
Local time: 20:55
German to Croatian
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| my thoughts on this topic are based on experience | Oct 30, 2006 |
Claudia Krysztofiak wrote: Leonard Pon wrote:
But the phonetic-phonological level is something we can acquire before a certain age, say the age of 15 – roughly speaking, of course.
All in all, an adult can learn a new language, but not perfectly.
Say 11.  Is this your opinion or do you have proof of this?
This is the opinion based on my experience as English and German language teacher working with students between 6 and 22 years old.
I do not say one CANNOT learn a new language. My point was that an adult can never achieve such a good pronunciation as this is the case with younger learners.
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| Just for the record... | Oct 30, 2006 |
James Davis wrote: Marie-Helene Hayles wrote:
However, I do know two Italians (with Italian parents) who could fool native English speakers into thinking they were English... one of whom has never even lived outside of Italy. Natural talent, I guess.
[Edited at 2006-10-29 20:40] Accent can easily deceive. I know a person with Italian parents, who was brought up in Grays in England and went to a French school. Speaking to him, he has a fabulous accent with a slight tint of the East/South London in it. However, when he writes, Oh dear, what a disaster. [Edited at 2006-10-30 09:38]
Both of the people I mention also *write* perfect English - otherwise I wouldn't have bothered mentioning them. I meant implicitly that they could fool native English speakers into thinking they were English, whether speaking or writing.
| | | | Deep-one
Local time: 21:55
English to Russian
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| Learning it... | Oct 30, 2006 |
I learnt my first languages (English and French) seriously at around the age of 20. Then I started German. In fact I never really liked it, but achieved 'Mittelstufe' and then dropped. Now Im 30 and learning Japanese (Minna No Nihongo 2). Half of my group are 20 y.o. cartoon fans. Most interesting thing is, the best student is a 32 year-old bank exec who never had any linguistic experience before and only started this 'to make brains work'. Im also doing fine. But anyway, japanese is a very spe... See more I learnt my first languages (English and French) seriously at around the age of 20. Then I started German. In fact I never really liked it, but achieved 'Mittelstufe' and then dropped. Now Im 30 and learning Japanese (Minna No Nihongo 2). Half of my group are 20 y.o. cartoon fans. Most interesting thing is, the best student is a 32 year-old bank exec who never had any linguistic experience before and only started this 'to make brains work'. Im also doing fine. But anyway, japanese is a very special language, because of its complicated writing and (relatively) easy grammar and learning Japanese may greatly differ from other (I mean European) languages. Pronunciation problems aren't a big concern either.
So, its not only the age. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Reed James
Chile
Local time: 14:55
Member (2005)
Spanish to English
| A matter of being rather than one of becoming | Oct 30, 2006 |
First of all, I would like to say that I have very much enjoyed reading this thread. More important to me than having a perfect accent or grammar in a foreign language is what experiences a person has had in that culture, be it in the very country where that language is spoken or with a group of people who speak that language.
Language in general is based on context. How can you understand anything I have written here if you haven't read something similar somewhere else before? How ... See more First of all, I would like to say that I have very much enjoyed reading this thread. More important to me than having a perfect accent or grammar in a foreign language is what experiences a person has had in that culture, be it in the very country where that language is spoken or with a group of people who speak that language.
Language in general is based on context. How can you understand anything I have written here if you haven't read something similar somewhere else before? How can you get a real grasp on the nuances of a certain language if you have never been in the proper environment?
I once knew a Chilean man with an advanced degree in linguistics with an almost perfect RP accent. However, his command of the language plummeted with any native speaker asked him a common question.
In addition, no one belongs to the "absolute" native speaker club in any language for more than 20 to 30 years. As people age, they continue to use the same words that they use in their youth. It would be silly, and inappropriate for an elderly person to use the slang of today. Also, as new technologies and experiences crop up, older people are "left out", either by choice or involuntarily.
As a result, I seriously question even entertaining the notion of an adult acquiring native speaker competence in a foreign language by the very nature of not having experienced certain events at the proper age.
Reed ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Unlearning is hard work | Oct 30, 2006 |
James Davis wrote:
I have seen this many, many times with advanced students. They are fluent, but make a few grammatical mistakes. I point out their grammatical mistakes. We do some exercises. They understand the problem and correct it. Then in free conversation five minutes later, they make the same mistake again (usually its word order, not always), but after 5-10 years or longer of unknowingly making a mistake, how can they lose the habit?
I know this from a different branch of learning: body movements. My husband is a Tai Chi teacher and many of his students have problems with their backs. This is often the result of years of harmful ways of moving and standing and sitting. When they start Tai Chi, they often say, how can I ever unlearn this? Chinese medicine says for every year you have been doing it one way, you need a month of training for undoing this (regarding the body). And it works, as far as we can see.
What we assume as adults is that once having heard about how to do it correctly we should be able to keep this in mind. But this is not the way our mind and our brain works. To unlearn a bad habit (to really alter the physiological basis for this habit inside our brain or wherever it resides) we need to put lots of effort into it, not just hear it once and then try for some hours. It takes months of constantly letting go the old stuff and doing the new thing until finally the new habit is learned and the old one unlearned. It won't help to train it once a week and then do it the wrong way the rest of the time.
Maybe this could also be true for language? Would be an interesting field of study.
The classic for critical periods is Lorenz (nobel for animal behaviour - ethology) who discovered "imprinting". I was just trying to explain the concept of critical periods, not to say, there definitely is or isn't a specific critical period for a given ability. Piaget pointed to many, but experimental evidence revealed a much more complex picture.
Jim
I think it is very helpful to know that there are certain phases when certain things are a lot easier to learn or do. I am just very reluctant to draw the conclusion that it is simply impossible to achieve a certain goal outside that respective phase.
By the way, there is a quite lengthy article about SLA (second language acquisition) in the English Wikipedia :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_language_acquisition
It emphasizes your point on complexity.
There are lots of theories and a lot of research is still going on. So we can happily argue for our preferred theories, for nothing has been decided, yet.
I guess when learning a language I'll stick to good enough. Perfect is definitely to hard for me.
[Bearbeitet am 2006-10-30 13:54]
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Hi,
This is a very interesting discussion. Apologies for my poor english...
I know the book "l'enfant aux 2 langues" (Claude Hagège), a very good book. There's also good books from Tomatis.
Some of you spoke about hearing. Regarding pronunciation, a good hearing is required.
During the pregnancy, on the 5th month the baby has 100% of its auditive capacity and it decrease till 80% (if I remember well) when he borns. After, it is continually decreasing and ... See more Hi,
This is a very interesting discussion. Apologies for my poor english...
I know the book "l'enfant aux 2 langues" (Claude Hagège), a very good book. There's also good books from Tomatis.
Some of you spoke about hearing. Regarding pronunciation, a good hearing is required.
During the pregnancy, on the 5th month the baby has 100% of its auditive capacity and it decrease till 80% (if I remember well) when he borns. After, it is continually decreasing and after several years, you are only able to recognise sounds in your native lenguage (that why some of you doesn't notice the "rr" in spanish).
There's some exceptions, I am a good example for spanish lenguage, maybe it is due to my musical hear, or because I had vietnamese and italian granmothers (so my auditive recognition capacity is hight) but I began to learn spanish at 13 years and I lived in spain for one year. Spanish people think I am spanish. When I was living there, in the University, I translated better from french to spanish (I am french)!!
I learnt portuguese when I was 19 and I have a very good pronunciation, everybody thinks my parents are portuguese.
What is the "perfect native lenguage"? I think it is when you speak and write like a native. Please remember that most of the native people doesn't know perfectly their own lenguage (I am not speaking about translators). If you don't have a perfect pronunciation but you are able to correct a native text, you have a very good native lenguage, even if you need a dictionnary to check some words, who knows everything??
Best regards ▲ Collapse
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 00:25
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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TOPIC STARTER SITE LOCALIZER | I would tend to agree with you there | Oct 30, 2006 |
Ruxi wrote:
In translation field there is now the theory that you have to be native speaker, or that you can learn a foreign language at a certain age. This theories are used for selection purpose and are discriminations.
...
Noone will ever be native speaker in a foreign language, but very close to and it is not even so important, not even for translation purposes.
As a translator you don't need pronunciation, as a interpreter you may not need to write correct.
Dear Ruxi,
I would have no problems with agreeing with your above sentiment.
Translation according to me is an art which one has to learn by practice and experience. A good knowledge of both source and target languages is essential, but a perfect knowledge can be dispensed with in most cases.
For interpretation, where reproducing speech symbols accurately is important, I would still consider native-like competency essential.
Also I would make a clear distinction between translation and editing, although most translators also dabble in editing, and there is nothing wrong in this if they have native-like competency in the target langauge. If they don't and they still do translation in that language, like most of us do at some time or the other, it might be a good idea to enlist a native speaker of the target language to edit the translation purely from the point of view of language use.
I am for restricting translation activity just to that - that is, translation; and this tendency of including other peripheral activities like interpretation, DTP, proof-reading and editing in the repertoire of translators, eventually does damage to our profession. Each of these are separate professions in themselves and should be left to the professionals of those professions. Have you ever heard of an eye-surgeon performing a heart surgery? But we translators do this all the time, don't we? The question is should we? But I suppose that is topic for another thread.
Consider for example that you don't have native-like competency in a language but fairly good command. You can still produce a good translation of value, which with a bit of editing or proofing can be made perfect, but if you offer proofing or editing services in that languge, then you will do lasting and irreparable damage, for you will be handling the final stuff which will be used by the end user. This is a job that is best done by native-speakers.
[Edited at 2006-10-30 16:41]
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 00:25
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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TOPIC STARTER SITE LOCALIZER | What is a native language? | Oct 30, 2006 |
For the purpose of clarity in this discussion I feel it would be useful to understand what is meant by native language.
I propose the following definition:
A native language is a language to which you have been exposed to for a sufficient period of time before the completion of adolescence and which you have continued to study and work and use in later life and have acquired a competency in it that is comparable to that of an average educated individual speaking that la... See more For the purpose of clarity in this discussion I feel it would be useful to understand what is meant by native language.
I propose the following definition:
A native language is a language to which you have been exposed to for a sufficient period of time before the completion of adolescence and which you have continued to study and work and use in later life and have acquired a competency in it that is comparable to that of an average educated individual speaking that language.
A native language does not, therefore, necessarily mean the mother tongue, or the first language you were exposed to. It need not even be a language very widely spoken in your area, although a speech community of sufficient numbers with whom to interact on a continuous basis would be essential.
You can take the example of English in India. Many Indians claim native-like competency in English, and justly, I would say, even though technically English is not an Indian language.
But due to historical reasons the infrastructure for teaching and learning English is available on a very wide scale indeed in India. This includes:
- educational institutions from kintergartens to full scale universities
- sizeable numbers of people at almost all places who speak good English
- access to language standards in the form of widely circulated newspapers, books, internet, and tv. India has some of the largest English newspapers in the world. India's English book publishing industry is the third largest in the world after USA and UK.
Given these resources, it is possible for an Indian to encounter English at a very young age and continue studying it throught his/her life.
The situation should be similar in other countries and regions with a colonial background, like French in Algiers.
Also I do not consider paper degrees or university degrees in a language important, for these are not critical for producing good translations. What is critical is exposure to the target language at a young age and continued study and use of that language in later life. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | It depends what you are translating | Oct 30, 2006 |
Balasubramaniam said
Translation according to me is an art which one has to learn by practice and experience. A good knowledge of both source and target languages is essential, but a perfect knowledge can be dispensed with in most cases … Consider for example that you don't have native-like competency in a language but fairly good command. You can still produce a good translation of value, which with a bit of editing or proofing can be made perfect …
On the corner where I hang out, most of these assertions are manifestly untrue. Perhaps it’s a particularly tough corner. But there, at least, ‘a good knowledge’ is never good enough.
If you’re translating a company’s annual report, or its marketing brochure, you might (might) be able to get away with a ‘good’ knowledge of the source and target languages. But if you’re translating a trade treaty among twelve countries whose people speak three different languages, then even ‘excellent’ is not good enough. Not only do you have to know and understand exactly what ‘countervailing duties’ are, but you have to know, instinctively, where all the commas are supposed to go. The placement of even a comma can change the meaning of such a text. And nobody will check it. It has to be perfect, first time.
To ‘dispense with a perfect knowledge’ in those circumstances can, quite literally, cause a diplomatic incident between sovereign states. It happens.
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Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 11:55
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
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| Humpty Dumpty language | Oct 30, 2006 |
Humpty Dumpty language - An idiosyncratic or eccentric use of language in which the meaning of particular words is determined by the speaker.
Balasubramaniam wrote:
A native language is a language to which you have been exposed to for a sufficient period of time before the completion of adolescence and which you have continued to study and work and use in later life and have acquired a competency in it that is comparable to that of an average educated individual speaking that language.
A native language does not, therefore, necessarily mean the mother tongue, or the first language you were exposed to. It need not even be a language very widely spoken in your area, although a speech community of sufficient numbers with whom to interact on a continuous basis would be essential.
"There's glory for you!"
"I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!' "
"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument,' " Alice objected.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is, " said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
My definition from an earlier thread.
Michele Fauble wrote:
Every human being is born with the ability to acquire the language spoken by the community in which he/she is born and raised. At around the age of 13-14 this natural ability to acquire a language begins to function at a less than optimal level, and any language acquired after this age is unlikely to be learned to a native speaker level in all aspects.
For a person to be considered a native speaker of a language, he/she must have learned it at a young age and as a member of a community of native speakers. This may be the family, the wider community in which he/she lives, or both.
Balasubramaniam, your definition of native language may conveniently allow you the option of claiming to be a native English speaker, but it excludes many people who would normally be considered to be native speakers of a language. According to your definition, all those whose competence is below that of an average educated individual would not be native speakers. All those who have been poorly educated, now and thoughout history, would not be native speakers of any language. Your definition also comes dangerously close to circularity, since by "average educated individual speaking that language" I suspect you mean "average educated native speaker" or "individual speaking that language with competence equivalent to a native speaker". Is this what you meant? If not, then the average educated individual's language may be anything from native-like to quite non-native-like, which would wreak havoc with your definition. Attempts to define "native language" using competence as a criterion are guilty of logical circularity, since terms such as "native-equivalent", "native-like" and "near-native" can only be defined with reference to "native language", which is the concept one is attempting to define.
[Edited at 2006-10-30 22:29]
| | | | | But, while you're making a point about native use and its relative uselessness ... | Oct 30, 2006 |
Balasubramaniam wrote:
But due to historical reasons the infrastructure for teaching and learning English is available on a very wide scale indeed in India.
Now, of course, we’re all writing in forums in which (I am given to understand by transparx on this site) all bets are off, and we should put together English sentences however we feel is best.
But why should anyone pay for the services of someone who doesn’t grasp the meaning of the very ordinary English term ‘due to’? Especially if the person in question is making a point about language? It’s wholly OK, if you don’t understand the difference between ‘due to’ and ‘because of’ or ‘for’. But it’s disheartening to be lectured on language by someone who doesn’t grasp that difference.
| | | | | speaking and writing | Oct 31, 2006 |
However, I do know two Italians (with Italian parents) who could fool native English speakers into thinking they were English... one of whom has never even lived outside of Italy. Natural talent, I guess.
[Edited at 2006-10-29 20:40]
Marie Helene,
I'm curious (well that's why I'm reading this). When I get a new class, I always ask for the English learning history. I want to know, how much exposure to English each pupil has had. When I find a student like your friends, I have *always* found some childhood exposure to native speakers, even if they have never been out of the country (The reason I ask, is because if they had no childhood experience, then I want to know how they learnt so that I can use that teaching method. I want to know the method). Ah you had an English baby sitter. Three weeks every year from age 11-15 in England. It doesn't take much, but is has to be at a young age.
Did your friends truly learn only as adults? Surely not from non native teachers.
Jim
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