Glossary entry (derived from question below)
English term or phrase:
Services relating to land
French translation:
services fonciers
- The asker opted for community grading. The question was closed on 2019-10-05 10:54:07 based on peer agreement (or, if there were too few peer comments, asker preference.)
Oct 1, 2019 19:59
4 yrs ago
3 viewers *
English term
Services relating to land
English to French
Bus/Financial
Law: Taxation & Customs
VAT / HMRC regulations
Context:
"
1- Heger Rudi is a decision concerned with whether fishing permits constitute a supply of services relating to land.
2- It states HMRC's view that the services are to be considered "services relating to land" as they represent a supply of land to which the additional data centre services are merely ancillary.
3- HMRC's decision has been made on the basis that the company is supplying services relating to land."
"
1- Heger Rudi is a decision concerned with whether fishing permits constitute a supply of services relating to land.
2- It states HMRC's view that the services are to be considered "services relating to land" as they represent a supply of land to which the additional data centre services are merely ancillary.
3- HMRC's decision has been made on the basis that the company is supplying services relating to land."
Proposed translations
(French)
4 +1 | services fonciers | Nathalie Stewart |
4 +1 | services ayant trait à un bien immeuble | Eliza Hall |
4 | services ayant trait à la terre | Joshua Parker |
4 | services ayant trait au territoire | Kidio Samni |
Proposed translations
+1
1 hr
Selected
services fonciers
Code civil français, article 552 :
https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?idArticl...
La propriété du sol emporte la propriété du dessus et du dessous.
Le propriétaire peut faire au-dessus toutes les plantations et constructions qu’il juge à propos, sauf les exceptions établies au titre des Servitudes ou Services fonciers.
Il peut faire au-dessous toutes les constructions et fouilles qu’il jugera à propos, et tirer de ces fouilles tous les produits qu’elles peuvent fournir, sauf les modifications résultant des lois et réglemens relatifs aux mines, et des lois et réglemens de police.
English version of the above, 2nd paragraph:
https://books.google.fr/books?id=fU-_bGsvP98C&pg=PA152&lpg=P...
"...The proprietor may make above all kinds of plantations and buildings which he shall judge convenient, saving the exceptions established under the title "Of Servitudes and Services relating to Land."
[...]
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Note added at 3 days 15 hrs (2019-10-05 11:58:54 GMT) Post-grading
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Thank you Yves.
https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?idArticl...
La propriété du sol emporte la propriété du dessus et du dessous.
Le propriétaire peut faire au-dessus toutes les plantations et constructions qu’il juge à propos, sauf les exceptions établies au titre des Servitudes ou Services fonciers.
Il peut faire au-dessous toutes les constructions et fouilles qu’il jugera à propos, et tirer de ces fouilles tous les produits qu’elles peuvent fournir, sauf les modifications résultant des lois et réglemens relatifs aux mines, et des lois et réglemens de police.
English version of the above, 2nd paragraph:
https://books.google.fr/books?id=fU-_bGsvP98C&pg=PA152&lpg=P...
"...The proprietor may make above all kinds of plantations and buildings which he shall judge convenient, saving the exceptions established under the title "Of Servitudes and Services relating to Land."
[...]
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Note added at 3 days 15 hrs (2019-10-05 11:58:54 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------
Thank you Yves.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
mchd
5 mins
|
Thank you!
|
|
agree |
GILLES MEUNIER
6 hrs
|
Thank you!
|
|
disagree |
Eliza Hall
: Not in this case. See discussion.
17 hrs
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Great, very elegant translation."
35 mins
services ayant trait à la terre
-
15 hrs
services ayant trait au territoire
le certificat de peche se delivre pour un territoire bien precis
+1
19 hrs
services ayant trait à un bien immeuble
This phrasing comes from the ECJ papers in the Rudi Heger case cited in Yves' text. That case was about the same thing as Yves' text (namely, which VAT rate to apply to a service that the taxing authorities consider to be a service relating to land, but the taxpayer claims is something else).
The ECJ papers don't use the UK term (services relating to land) but rather a synonym: services relating to immovable property. That is pretty clearly a gallicism/non-Englishism translated literally into English (since "immovable vs. movable property" is a distinction not native to Anglo law). But it's the exact same thing, and that distinction IS native to French law so it works very well in a >FR translation.
Here's a link to the papers in the Rudi Heger case -- you can right-click on the PDFs to select which language you want to see them in:
http://curia.europa.eu/juris/documents.jsf?oqp=&for=&mat=or&...
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Note added at 19 hrs (2019-10-02 15:09:54 GMT)
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PS: The ECJ explained that a portion of a river flowing through XYZ property is a "bien immeuble" and a fishing permit is among "les droits réels donnant à leur titulaire un pouvoir d'utilisation sur les biens immeubles."
The ECJ papers don't use the UK term (services relating to land) but rather a synonym: services relating to immovable property. That is pretty clearly a gallicism/non-Englishism translated literally into English (since "immovable vs. movable property" is a distinction not native to Anglo law). But it's the exact same thing, and that distinction IS native to French law so it works very well in a >FR translation.
Here's a link to the papers in the Rudi Heger case -- you can right-click on the PDFs to select which language you want to see them in:
http://curia.europa.eu/juris/documents.jsf?oqp=&for=&mat=or&...
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Note added at 19 hrs (2019-10-02 15:09:54 GMT)
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PS: The ECJ explained that a portion of a river flowing through XYZ property is a "bien immeuble" and a fishing permit is among "les droits réels donnant à leur titulaire un pouvoir d'utilisation sur les biens immeubles."
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Michael Confais (X)
1 day 22 hrs
|
Discussion
The problem with "foncier" is that we need a term that makes sense with fishing permits and the like, but "foncier" is specifically about land itself (i.e. land that you can cultivate or build upon; not waters that may be included on or run through a given piece of land):
Fonds de terre: "Sol (d'une terre) en tant que moyen de production... Étymol. et Hist. A. 1. Ca 1200 funz 'terre cultivée ou sur laquelle on bâtit'" https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/fonds/3
Foncier: Qui constitue un bien-fonds. Biens fonciers. https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/foncier
Bien-fonds: Propriété comprenant "le sol et tout ce qui en dépend en superficie et en profondeur : les immeubles" https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/bien-fonds
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foncier
« Foncier » ayant valeur d'adjectif, le mot désigne ce qui est « relatif à un fonds de terre, à son exploitation, à son imposition ».
So this is not about services fonciers (i.e. it's not about what we in English would call real estate services). That is hinted at by the fact that Yves' text cites a decision under which fishing permits were found to be "a supply of services relating to land" under these rules. This link discusses the Heger-Rudi case cited in Yves' text: https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/vat-place-of-supply...