Glossary entry

Russian term or phrase:

разночинные кварталы

English translation:

mixed neighbourhood

Added to glossary by Katia Gygax
Feb 24, 2010 06:44
14 yrs ago
Russian term

разночинные кварталы

Russian to English Social Sciences History Russian history
Уважаемые коллеги,

Почему-то внутренний голос не принимает intellectual quarters. Кто работал с подобной темой, нет ли чего-нибудь еще?

Контекст, собственно, не нужен. Речь о разночинных кварталах Петербурга - Лиговке. Разночинец это же не обязательно человек умственного труда, это прежде всего "недворянин", "некрестьянин", "некупец" и "неремесленник". Применительно к кварталу это смесь всех кроме дворян.

Discussion

Katia Gygax (asker) Feb 25, 2010:
Я не могу не поблагодарить еще раз всех. И еще хочу сказать, что вот тут я действительно в затруднении по поводу того, кому именно отдавать баллы. Гибрид-то из трех ответов. Выбираю ответ Михаила Коровкина, поскольку он дал именно формулировку, которая мне подходит, и первым заговорил о неоднозначности понятия.
Katia Gygax (asker) Feb 24, 2010:
Господа, всем спасибо огромное. Невероятно продуктивно получилось. Я уже знаю, что выберу завтра, как только можно будет: "mixed neighbourhood". По причине близости к сути дела и, самое главное, нейтральности этого сочетания.
Michael Korovkin Feb 24, 2010:
Then, how 'bout Neighbourhood where educated commoners lived. Or simply use an English term for the non-nobles and yet non-working-class either: "esquire neighbourhoos"? Come to think about it your raznochinzy are basically equivalent to squires, ain't they?
Igor Moshkin Feb 24, 2010:
Вы правы To Katia: В конце концов: 1) Вы отвечаете за окончательную стилистику буклета; 2) Разночинные кварталы не являются именем собственным; потому принимайте решение самостоятельно. Удачи!
Oleksandr Kupriyanchuk Feb 24, 2010:
Non-noble pre-middle-class neighbourhoods
We have to agree with Michael that the bookletness makes a big difference.
However, тогда еще окраинная питерская Лиговка is neither "sociological melting pot" nor simply "mixed neighbourhood a la Brooklyn".
IMHO, it should be rather something in line with
"the non-noble pre-middle-class neighbourhoods".
Michael Korovkin Feb 24, 2010:
I didn't know it was for a booklet! Then put "sociological melting pot" or simply "mixed neighbourhood" (we are not in Soth Africa, I hope!). "A neighbourhood of people from all walks of life" would sound even better – I mean for a booklet. That's how they refer to Brooklyn nowadays. A comfortable area where a yupee stockbroker resides on the same block with his coke pusher and next door to the call girl he uses to entertain his Saudi investors. Raznochinzy my bum! :)
Katia Gygax (asker) Feb 24, 2010:
При всем уважении я не могу взять и не возьму вариант Raznochintsy quarters. Это историческая справка в рекламном буклете. Никто не обрадуется, если слова из рекламного буклета надо искать в энциклопедии. Неужели в английской культуре не было такого явления? На самом деле для петербуржца понятно, что Лиговка называется разночинными кварталами из соображений приличия, поскольку там было все. Предложение "neighbourhoods" мне понравилось, спасибо большое. Осталось с разночинцами разобраться, но эта задача, похоже, под силу только коллективному разуму.
Oleksandr Kupriyanchuk Feb 24, 2010:
"neighbourhoods" instead? To avoid this kind-of-cul-de-sac:

R. neighbourhoods of of St. Petersburg

-- given rather a remote location of these "Blocks-but-not-Quarters" at that time.
Katia Gygax (asker) Feb 24, 2010:
This is quite a large area, not just one district and not individual blocks and it is rather poor (used to be). In fact I have just thought about the word "end".
Alistair Gainey Feb 24, 2010:
Thinking about it, if you did go with the "quarter" option, the singular might be better than the plural. Although I suppose it depends exactly what's going on here -are we talking about a specific district, or discrete individual blocks?

Proposed translations

+1
1 hr
Selected

middle-class district/residential area/blocks >< bourgeous district/residential area/blocks

1) one cannot define a social class exclusively through what it is not: "raznochinzy" were the newly emerging Russian middle class, that is, strictly speaking, the bourgeoisie.
2) "Quartaly" are, basically, "blocks", district, etc., but by no means "quarters". Quarters is not really a translation but a transliteration
Note from asker:
Спасибо, Михаил. Поэтому я и спрашиваю, что это вне моей компетенции. Нужно простое и недвусмысленное название. Насчет кварталов все поняла и приняла, спасибо. С разночинцами мне пока не все ясно. По сути это вперемешку третье сословие и нарождающийся пролетариат умственного труда. Слово-то вначале означало нечто близкое к деклассированному элементу.
Peer comment(s):

neutral Alistair Gainey : The first part sounds ok to me (assuming terms like "middle-class" and "bourgeois" aren't anachronistic). But I'm not sure about your opposition to "quarter" though. A quarter, in this sense, is a district, lived in mainly by a certain group of people.
24 mins
sure, like Latin Quarter as opposed to Schmato District. Okay, I guess I've been to radical. But not "quarterS" though! That's a no–no
neutral Jim Tucker (X) : Decidedly more radical than the bourgeoisie, the raz. were dissatisfied, intellectual advocates of change. "Middle-class" yes. // B and MC not entirely synonyms; B has social and behavioral overtones.
1 hr
Nah,Jim,that's a romantic reading of r.ch by such radical r.ch as Chernyshevskij&Dobroliubov.Most were office clerks,various professionals etc.,abiding in political alienation.MCs are forever shy of the lable "bourgeoisie" but that's what they(we!!!) are.
agree Oleksandr Kupriyanchuk : NO quarters, "bourgeous","middle class"(unless an appropriate explanation is given to the LATTER, for instance, as a footnote).The middle class actually emerged in the West as a result of the Ind.Revolution.The "middle class" a bit later in Russia?I doubt
4 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Дай Вам Бог здоровья. "
+4
22 mins

Raznochintsy quarters

Why not?
Note from asker:
Thank you.
Peer comment(s):

agree Alistair Gainey : OK, you got there first :)
0 min
Thank you! Probably, false start? :-)
agree Vanda Nissen
32 mins
Thank you!
agree Radwan Rahman
1 hr
Thank you!
agree Oleksandr Kupriyanchuk : R. (residential) areas / districts / EVEN "neighbourhoods" (given the location at that time).
5 hrs
Благодарю! Я все же склонен к Quarter (sing.) по аналогии с Латинским Кварталом. Хотя зависит от стилистики всего текста.
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+2
22 mins

Raznochintsy quarters

This depends a little on your audience, but I would keep the Russian term and explain it in a footnote, if possible. Wikipedia has an entry for it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raznochintsy), it's also explained at http://www.answers.com/topic/raznochintsy, and there are various other examples of its use in English-language sites on the internet. I don't know what the majority of historians would do, but this does seem to be an option.
Note from asker:
Thank you very much. What would you say of simply "commons quaters"? It is a historical note but it is a part of an advertising booklet. I doubt that real estate agents would enjoy wikipedia reading.
Peer comment(s):

agree Alieksei Seniukovich
4 hrs
agree Oleksandr Kupriyanchuk : R. [residential] areas / districts / EVEN "neighbourhoods" (given rather a remote location at that time).
5 hrs
Something went wrong...
7 hrs

nearly-middle-class (quasi-middle-class) neighbourhoods

Oh!
Something like that.
At least in the tone, IMHO.

Is'nt that the way ?..



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2010-02-24 14:10:31 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------


Как варианты:

" lower middle class... "

" pre-middle-class... "
Something went wrong...
8 hrs

a neighborhood of social outsiders

This neighborhood was inhabited by outsiders, poor, sometimes educated people lacking officially acceptable social status.

Без описания, похоже, не обойтись. Я бы так выкрутил.
Something went wrong...
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