Apr 28, 2023 07:06
1 yr ago
31 viewers *
French term
dégâts diffus
French to English
Bus/Financial
Insurance
Property transaction, sale of a large huntin' shootin' fishin' domain and various buildings. These are some details about how the wooded areas/forests are insured.
"...
SINISTRE PENDANT LA DUREE DE VALIDITE DE LA PROMESSE
Le Promettant déclare que les bois sont actuellement assurés contre les incendies-tempêtes.
Si un sinistre survenait à l’intérieur de la durée de validité des présentes, le Bénéficiaire aurait la faculté :
• soit de renoncer purement et simplement à la vente et de se voir immédiatement restituer la somme versée au titre de l’Indemnité d’immobilisation,
• soit de maintenir l’acquisition du Bien sinistré et de se voir attribuer les indemnités susceptibles d’être versées, sans limitation de ces indemnités fussent-elles supérieures au prix convenu aux présentes.
Le Promettant entend que dans cette hypothèse le Bénéficiaire soit purement subrogé dans tous ses droits à l’égard des compagnies d’assurances.
Pour l’exécution de la présente clause, les Parties conviennent de définir le sinistre comme la destruction, la mortalité, la chute ou la casse de plus de 1500 m3 de bois d’œuvre, par le fait des conditions météorologiques, d’un incendie, d’une attaque sanitaire ou du vandalisme.
Il est ici toutefois précisé que la présente promesse de vente ne pourra pas être remise en cause si les dégâts diffus sont inférieurs à 1500 m3, mais que le Bénéficiaire sera alors subrogé dans les droits du Promettant à l’égard de la compagnie d’assurance (dans l’hypothèse où le sinistre survenu était couvert par le contrat d’assurance).
..."
I'm trying to understand what this adjective diffus might mean here. Could it be "total" or "combined" damage, i.e. after such an insured event, look at the entire domain, and tot up all the patches where trees have been destroyed... and if this comes to over 1500 m3 of wood... Seems a strange choice of adjective.
"...
SINISTRE PENDANT LA DUREE DE VALIDITE DE LA PROMESSE
Le Promettant déclare que les bois sont actuellement assurés contre les incendies-tempêtes.
Si un sinistre survenait à l’intérieur de la durée de validité des présentes, le Bénéficiaire aurait la faculté :
• soit de renoncer purement et simplement à la vente et de se voir immédiatement restituer la somme versée au titre de l’Indemnité d’immobilisation,
• soit de maintenir l’acquisition du Bien sinistré et de se voir attribuer les indemnités susceptibles d’être versées, sans limitation de ces indemnités fussent-elles supérieures au prix convenu aux présentes.
Le Promettant entend que dans cette hypothèse le Bénéficiaire soit purement subrogé dans tous ses droits à l’égard des compagnies d’assurances.
Pour l’exécution de la présente clause, les Parties conviennent de définir le sinistre comme la destruction, la mortalité, la chute ou la casse de plus de 1500 m3 de bois d’œuvre, par le fait des conditions météorologiques, d’un incendie, d’une attaque sanitaire ou du vandalisme.
Il est ici toutefois précisé que la présente promesse de vente ne pourra pas être remise en cause si les dégâts diffus sont inférieurs à 1500 m3, mais que le Bénéficiaire sera alors subrogé dans les droits du Promettant à l’égard de la compagnie d’assurance (dans l’hypothèse où le sinistre survenu était couvert par le contrat d’assurance).
..."
I'm trying to understand what this adjective diffus might mean here. Could it be "total" or "combined" damage, i.e. after such an insured event, look at the entire domain, and tot up all the patches where trees have been destroyed... and if this comes to over 1500 m3 of wood... Seems a strange choice of adjective.
Proposed translations
(English)
References
Diffuse - + synonyms | AllegroTrans |
Proposed translations
+4
37 mins
Selected
Scattered damage
I found this on a hunch. Not sure it fits your context.
Online:
Storms cause scattered damage - Defiance
Severe storms that rolled through the area late Monday afternoon caused scattered wind damage throughout the area.
Online:
Storms cause scattered damage - Defiance
Severe storms that rolled through the area late Monday afternoon caused scattered wind damage throughout the area.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Conor McAuley
2 hrs
|
agree |
philgoddard
4 hrs
|
agree |
Sheri P
6 hrs
|
agree |
ph-b (X)
7 hrs
|
3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks, looks like you posted this first. "
-1
26 mins
overall damage
in the sense of 'the extent of the widespread damage';
However, it is hereby specified that this promise of sale may not be called into question if the overall damage covers less than 1500 m3, but rather that the Beneficiary's rights shall then be subrogated to the Promissor's rights with regard to the insurance company (in the event that the loss incurred was covered by the insurance contract).
However, it is hereby specified that this promise of sale may not be called into question if the overall damage covers less than 1500 m3, but rather that the Beneficiary's rights shall then be subrogated to the Promissor's rights with regard to the insurance company (in the event that the loss incurred was covered by the insurance contract).
Peer comment(s):
disagree |
Daryo
: What's the point of having samples of real-life use of a term *in the right context* accessible in seconds if instead we start assuming? // How many times do you need to find out the meaning in context is *not exactly the expected one* to start checking?
57 mins
|
It is reasonable to assume that real life examples may vary so much fom the context in question that they may not be relevant.
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neutral |
AllegroTrans
: That is kind of implied but it's not the meaning of "diffus"
2 hrs
|
Yep, thanks.
|
1 hr
scattered damage
Dégâts diffus seems to be a thing in forestry and agriculture, including vineyards. It is opposed to dégats massifs.
"In affected areas, defoliation intensity continued to be low-tomoderate and was primarily restricted to the upper crown of large trees and diffuse damage over understory hosts."
https://www.fs.usda.gov/foresthealth/docs/fhh/OR_FHH_2008.pd...
"Forest storm damage is more frequent on acidic soils
[ … ] Data from 969 sites in France, southern Germany and Switzerland was analysed with multiple logistic regression models. Variables found to be significantly related to storm damage, which was mainly scattered damage in our study, were "country", "soil pH", "proportion of coniferous trees", "slope", "humus type", "stand height", and "altitude"."
https://www.afs-journal.org/articles/forest/abs/2005/04/F503...
[The authors appear to be French, Swiss and Austrian]
"Large and uniformly distributed damage outbreaks were well captured by an NFI-type inventory, but scattered damage outbreaks produced estimates with poor precision"
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270535284_On_the_po...
[article published in Silva Fennica, journal of the The Finish [sic!] Society of Forest Science. The authors appear to be Swedish. But Finns and Swedes surely know their trees …]
"Strong winds frequently cause scattered damage in forests. Although much less noticeable than catastrophic storm damage, the accumulative effect can be significant in terms of volume loss and negative impacts on wood quality."
https://www.scionresearch.com/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/57...
[from good ol' New Zealand]
The following are taken straight from the Google results, the actual articles being inaccessible.
"If your woodlot has scattered damage, you may wish to have a forester examine"
"In Green County, widely scattered damage was reported along a 10 mile stretch"
They are from Wisconsin (Swedes again?) (https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/topic/forestlandowners/stormrecove...
"Although the spatial alignment of the data is not perfect, probably due to uncertainties in the sketchmapping process, the general patterns are similar, with extensive damage in the floodplains and scattered damage elsewhere. The expected relationships between the predicted forest damage and the auxiliary variables were found"
https://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/42226/PDF
"In affected areas, defoliation intensity continued to be low-tomoderate and was primarily restricted to the upper crown of large trees and diffuse damage over understory hosts."
https://www.fs.usda.gov/foresthealth/docs/fhh/OR_FHH_2008.pd...
"Forest storm damage is more frequent on acidic soils
[ … ] Data from 969 sites in France, southern Germany and Switzerland was analysed with multiple logistic regression models. Variables found to be significantly related to storm damage, which was mainly scattered damage in our study, were "country", "soil pH", "proportion of coniferous trees", "slope", "humus type", "stand height", and "altitude"."
https://www.afs-journal.org/articles/forest/abs/2005/04/F503...
[The authors appear to be French, Swiss and Austrian]
"Large and uniformly distributed damage outbreaks were well captured by an NFI-type inventory, but scattered damage outbreaks produced estimates with poor precision"
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270535284_On_the_po...
[article published in Silva Fennica, journal of the The Finish [sic!] Society of Forest Science. The authors appear to be Swedish. But Finns and Swedes surely know their trees …]
"Strong winds frequently cause scattered damage in forests. Although much less noticeable than catastrophic storm damage, the accumulative effect can be significant in terms of volume loss and negative impacts on wood quality."
https://www.scionresearch.com/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/57...
[from good ol' New Zealand]
The following are taken straight from the Google results, the actual articles being inaccessible.
"If your woodlot has scattered damage, you may wish to have a forester examine"
"In Green County, widely scattered damage was reported along a 10 mile stretch"
They are from Wisconsin (Swedes again?) (https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/topic/forestlandowners/stormrecove...
"Although the spatial alignment of the data is not perfect, probably due to uncertainties in the sketchmapping process, the general patterns are similar, with extensive damage in the floodplains and scattered damage elsewhere. The expected relationships between the predicted forest damage and the auxiliary variables were found"
https://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/42226/PDF
Note from asker:
I'm inclining towards this... but I do think it sounds odd (in the same way in the ST) to say "the promise may not be contested if scattered damage is less than X" ... so can it be contested in the case of "non-scattered damage" of less than X? Seems quite an important thing to want to know! |
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Daryo
: there is another element: "dégâts diffus" are areas that are only "partially damaged", which doesn't exclude that it could be a big area in total - like 80% of the forest suffering 15% damage after a storm.
10 mins
|
agree |
Conor McAuley
: I think "partially damaged" may be implied, but the concept isn't contained in the word "diffus", that's my take on it, anyway.
53 mins
|
neutral |
philgoddard
: I don't understand why you've posted this again.
3 hrs
|
disagree |
Andrew Bramhall
: Agree with Phil G
11 hrs
|
+3
1 hr
diffuse damage
dégâts diffus = many spots of partial damage, as opposed to one clearly delimited area of total damage.
see
https://www.ign.fr/publications-de-l-ign/Institut/Publicatio...
https://www.keraunos.org/actualites/fil-infos/2021/juin/orag...
https://journals.openedition.org/physio-geo/1014
search for: "diffuse damage" forest
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2023-04-28 09:04:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
This "diffuse damage" is defined by the volume of damaged trees (max 1500m3), NOT by the surface of the forest where it occured - which makes sense for partial damage in many spots.
You can also see in the first doc that "dégâts diffus" do not even register in aerial surveys of storm damage, because they are localised only partially damaged spots.
see
https://www.ign.fr/publications-de-l-ign/Institut/Publicatio...
https://www.keraunos.org/actualites/fil-infos/2021/juin/orag...
https://journals.openedition.org/physio-geo/1014
search for: "diffuse damage" forest
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2023-04-28 09:04:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
This "diffuse damage" is defined by the volume of damaged trees (max 1500m3), NOT by the surface of the forest where it occured - which makes sense for partial damage in many spots.
You can also see in the first doc that "dégâts diffus" do not even register in aerial surveys of storm damage, because they are localised only partially damaged spots.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
AllegroTrans
: I see no reason to shy away from the literal translation
3 mins
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Especially when after checking it turns out that it makes perfect sense. Thanks!
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agree |
Emmanuella
2 hrs
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Merci!
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agree |
FPC
11 hrs
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Merci!
|
2 hrs
scattered damage
I was researching while you all were posting answers...
See Discussion.
See Discussion.
Peer comment(s):
disagree |
Andrew Bramhall
: Even so, is it really necessary to post the same answer a third time, with such a time lag that you must have seen the previous two beforehand?// No, you're taking the gypsies' kiss, sorry.You haven't even posted any results of your "research".
45 mins
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Well, it seems that Discussion entries update in real time, but answers don't...my logic really was that I referred to an answer in a Discussion entry, so then I had to post the answer!!!
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agree |
Bourth
: Happens.
1 hr
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I have rabbit holes in rabbit holes in rabbit holes...by the time I'd read about the storms in 1999, it was almost time for lunch! / I tried to look into Daryo's reference, got not much, then a bit about timber/lumber/wood and then 1999 and the storms...
|
+1
2 hrs
randomly dispersed (aftermath of) damage
I'm not sure what - even with the luxury of fastening on one single term in a large translation job - is the problem with diffuse and the foregone - but mistaken - conclusion that dégâts is translatable by 'damage only', rather than - pace and courtesy of ProZ regulars - dilapidations or depredations.
> by opposition with = unlike other contributors whose English has been influenced by long residence in a French- or Denglish-etc. speaking country, I would let other legal & insurance terms, like dilapidations, ought to get a look-in.
Diffus: diffuse, random, Dict. Gen. de la Ind. Tech., Ernst.
> by opposition with = unlike other contributors whose English has been influenced by long residence in a French- or Denglish-etc. speaking country, I would let other legal & insurance terms, like dilapidations, ought to get a look-in.
Diffus: diffuse, random, Dict. Gen. de la Ind. Tech., Ernst.
Reference:
http://iate.europa.eu/search/result/1682670845597/1
http://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/random-fire-damage-in-hillsbrad-foothills/1063111
Reference comments
1 hr
Reference:
Diffuse - + synonyms
Adjective
▲
Spread out over a wide area
scattered
dispersed
spread
disseminated
distributed
diffused
strewn
circulated
widespread
broadcast
expanded
extended
prevalent
propagated
radiated
universal
unconcentrated
spread-out
spread out
not concentrated
sprinkled
sown
sowed
strewed
littered
spread evenly
planted
cast
bestrewn
“Diffuse smoke from the fire fills the eastern sky, suppressing details.”
▲
Spread out over a wide area
scattered
dispersed
spread
disseminated
distributed
diffused
strewn
circulated
widespread
broadcast
expanded
extended
prevalent
propagated
radiated
universal
unconcentrated
spread-out
spread out
not concentrated
sprinkled
sown
sowed
strewed
littered
spread evenly
planted
cast
bestrewn
“Diffuse smoke from the fire fills the eastern sky, suppressing details.”
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree |
philgoddard
3 hrs
|
thanks
|
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neutral |
Andrew Bramhall
: The past participle of the verb 'to strew' is actually 'strewN', not 'strewED';
21 hrs
|
I suggest you take this up with Encyclopedia Britannica since you appear to have superior knowledge: https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/strew
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Discussion
It might look as a luxury, but spending as much time as it takes on key terms is what makes the difference.
In a contract of several pages, you can polish to your heart's content the style, but you if miss the exact meaning of even one key terms, the whole translation turns into just a pile of useless words, as far as its practical value goes.
If the contracting parties decided to take into account ONLY " les dégâts diffus (inférieurs à 1500 m3)" as threshold for a specific action, it's certainly not the translator's business to decide that it would be a "luxury" to dwell on the exact meaning and simply replace it by unspecified "les dégâts".
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Figure-Fire-damage-m-in-...
My point about "incendie-tempête" was kind of jokey, and you can have an ice storm, a windstorm, all kinds of storms, but the expression makes no sense to a non-native, it reads as fire-cum-storm to a native English speaker, to me at least.
We should both just let it rest at this stage. No more charabia.
I was multitasking too, lots of things going on, and an hour is a rough estimate too.
But that's another day's work.
Here is the page I found about lumber, timber and wood, which is kind of fascinating to the uninitiated:
https://duffieldtimber.com/the-workbench/categories/timber-t...
I was distracted and amused by "incendies-tempêtes", which I had a laugh at and surmised to mean fires combined with storms (!), and I though that "à l’intérieur de la durée de validité" sounded very robotic/Franglais for "within" something, but it's not...so all these things take time.
https://www.sylvassur.com/vous-proteger/
wiktionary.org
https://en.wiktionary.org › wiki › scatter
Etymology Edit ... From Middle English scateren, skateren, (also schateren, see shatter), from Old English *sceaterian, probably from a dialect of Old Norse."
I suppose we use Latinate words more for technical things, maybe to show off a bit, and words from other sources when we want to appeal more on a gut level...the musings go on, apologies...
And there's nothing wrong with "diffuse" except that it strikes me as a bit Latinate, versus "scattered", which is presumably more Anglo-Saxon or some such.
> by opposition with = unlike other contributors whose English has been influenced by long residence in a French- or Denglish-etc. speaking country, I would let other legal & insurance terms, like dilapidations, ought to get a look-in.
Surely the damage is above X amount or below X amount, and any further analysis is redundant.
I'm sure you guys will come up with an explanation.
Note that it's cubic metres (steres) and not square metres.
Also the concept of "bois d'oeuvre" (which is lumber, it seems) is problematic, is it not?
Does the wood have to be in semi-processed form, i.e. those trunks you see without their branches, in piles? I can't picture that on an estate like this.
By the way, off-topic again I'm afraid, "domaine" should be translated as "estate", surely?
You've been here too long (or not long enough), like me, I think.
(I seem to remember I had a flight to Ireland cancelled in 1999 due to the storms referred to in Daryo's reference...the grass runways at Beauvais were damaged or something...)
https://www.ign.fr/publications-de-l-ign/Institut/Publicatio...
10 occurrences of "dégâts diffus" in the right context.
I means a localised partial damage to the woodland, or a very small area of total damage. As opposed to a large area totally devastated by fire of storm.
Like a 'douleur diffuse' — not specifically localised in some given spot.