Apr 28, 2023 07:06
1 yr ago
31 viewers *
French term

dégâts diffus

French to English Bus/Financial Insurance
Property transaction, sale of a large huntin' shootin' fishin' domain and various buildings. These are some details about how the wooded areas/forests are insured.

"...
SINISTRE PENDANT LA DUREE DE VALIDITE DE LA PROMESSE
Le Promettant déclare que les bois sont actuellement assurés contre les incendies-tempêtes.
Si un sinistre survenait à l’intérieur de la durée de validité des présentes, le Bénéficiaire aurait la faculté :
• soit de renoncer purement et simplement à la vente et de se voir immédiatement restituer la somme versée au titre de l’Indemnité d’immobilisation,
• soit de maintenir l’acquisition du Bien sinistré et de se voir attribuer les indemnités susceptibles d’être versées, sans limitation de ces indemnités fussent-elles supérieures au prix convenu aux présentes.
Le Promettant entend que dans cette hypothèse le Bénéficiaire soit purement subrogé dans tous ses droits à l’égard des compagnies d’assurances.
Pour l’exécution de la présente clause, les Parties conviennent de définir le sinistre comme la destruction, la mortalité, la chute ou la casse de plus de 1500 m3 de bois d’œuvre, par le fait des conditions météorologiques, d’un incendie, d’une attaque sanitaire ou du vandalisme.
Il est ici toutefois précisé que la présente promesse de vente ne pourra pas être remise en cause si les dégâts diffus sont inférieurs à 1500 m3, mais que le Bénéficiaire sera alors subrogé dans les droits du Promettant à l’égard de la compagnie d’assurance (dans l’hypothèse où le sinistre survenu était couvert par le contrat d’assurance).
..."

I'm trying to understand what this adjective diffus might mean here. Could it be "total" or "combined" damage, i.e. after such an insured event, look at the entire domain, and tot up all the patches where trees have been destroyed... and if this comes to over 1500 m3 of wood... Seems a strange choice of adjective.

Discussion

Daryo Apr 30, 2023:
"Luxury of ..." as a point of method "the luxury of fastening on one single term in a large translation job"

It might look as a luxury, but spending as much time as it takes on key terms is what makes the difference.

In a contract of several pages, you can polish to your heart's content the style, but you if miss the exact meaning of even one key terms, the whole translation turns into just a pile of useless words, as far as its practical value goes.

If the contracting parties decided to take into account ONLY " les dégâts diffus (inférieurs à 1500 m3)" as threshold for a specific action, it's certainly not the translator's business to decide that it would be a "luxury" to dwell on the exact meaning and simply replace it by unspecified "les dégâts".
FPC Apr 29, 2023:
I agree with Emmanuella beside the term "diffus" for which many good translations have been proposed (especially Daryo's), the pith of the matter here is the acceptable threshold for the total area of damaged property. That's what the meaning of the translation should focus on in my opinion.
Emmanuella Apr 29, 2023:
Pourquoi ne pas modifier la phrase comme suit : ...Si l'étendue des dégâts est inférieure à 1500 m3. (if the scope of damage...)? C'est le sens escompté me semble-t-il.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Figure-Fire-damage-m-in-...
Conor McAuley Apr 29, 2023:
As previously mentioned, KudoZ answers do not seem to update in real time, and also as previously mentioned, I posted my answer in the end because I said I was going to post an answer in a Discussion entry. I don't need and I don't care about the points (or the glory) any more.

My point about "incendie-tempête" was kind of jokey, and you can have an ice storm, a windstorm, all kinds of storms, but the expression makes no sense to a non-native, it reads as fire-cum-storm to a native English speaker, to me at least.

We should both just let it rest at this stage. No more charabia.
Andrew Bramhall Apr 29, 2023:
@Conor Fair enough, but the fact remains that it is counter-productive, not to mention against proZ rules, to post repeat answers, which happened twice here at long time intervals that it goes without saying there was no posting overlap. Where there is simultaneous posting, the it is deemed acceptable.The"incendie-tempête" it rains, thus putting out the fire??? Not necessarily; you can have ' fire storms' in English, where fires break out sporadically and possibly intensively over a large area, where the 'storm' element doesn't involve rain water, and doesn't involve extinguishing them.Have a good weekend!
Conor McAuley Apr 28, 2023:
A slow day and a question that interested me. I was replying to your Disagree comment.

I was multitasking too, lots of things going on, and an hour is a rough estimate too.
Andrew Bramhall Apr 28, 2023:
@Conor You seem to be labouring under a misapprehension; my comments were aimed at the agrammatical and confused text posted by AMM under his answer as " context". And you have an hour to waste researching other peoples' questions? Ten minutes max is my motto.
Conor McAuley Apr 28, 2023:
Surely during the "incendie-tempête" it rains, thus putting out the fire???

But that's another day's work.
Conor McAuley Apr 28, 2023:
Yeah, there was some weird stuff in there, it was interesting.
Emmanuella Apr 28, 2023:
'A l'intérieur de la durée de validité ' m'a également interpellée...
Conor McAuley Apr 28, 2023:
FAO Andrew Granted my research did last about an hour, which is ridiculous...

Here is the page I found about lumber, timber and wood, which is kind of fascinating to the uninitiated:
https://duffieldtimber.com/the-workbench/categories/timber-t...

I was distracted and amused by "incendies-tempêtes", which I had a laugh at and surmised to mean fires combined with storms (!), and I though that "à l’intérieur de la durée de validité" sounded very robotic/Franglais for "within" something, but it's not...so all these things take time.
Conor McAuley Apr 28, 2023:
Get f***ing ChatGPT or DeepL to explain those nuances to you!
Conor McAuley Apr 28, 2023:
For the record – all the way back to Old Norse "scatter

wiktionary.org
https://en.wiktionary.org › wiki › scatter

Etymology Edit ... From Middle English scateren, skateren, (also schateren, see shatter), from Old English *sceaterian, probably from a dialect of Old Norse."

I suppose we use Latinate words more for technical things, maybe to show off a bit, and words from other sources when we want to appeal more on a gut level...the musings go on, apologies...
Conor McAuley Apr 28, 2023:
You're right about second- and third-language interference, but it strikes me that "charabia" is used much more in French than in English, and that's probably where you picked it up.

And there's nothing wrong with "diffuse" except that it strikes me as a bit Latinate, versus "scattered", which is presumably more Anglo-Saxon or some such.
Andrew Bramhall Apr 28, 2023:
Can anyone explain this unintelligible charabia ? I'm not sure what - even with the luxury of fastening on one single term in a large translation job - is the problem with diffuse and the foregone - but mistaken - conclusion that dégâts is translatable by 'damage only', rather than - pace and courtesy of ProZ regulars - dilapidations or depredations.

> by opposition with = unlike other contributors whose English has been influenced by long residence in a French- or Denglish-etc. speaking country, I would let other legal & insurance terms, like dilapidations, ought to get a look-in.
Conor McAuley Apr 28, 2023:
Oops...all the answers went up while I was musing...
Conor McAuley Apr 28, 2023:
I don't understand why the concept of "diffus" has been used, so my answer is only tentative, I know what but I don't know why.

Surely the damage is above X amount or below X amount, and any further analysis is redundant.

I'm sure you guys will come up with an explanation.
Conor McAuley Apr 28, 2023:
Maybe dissipated or scattered? As opposed to focussed or concentrated, as Tony says.

Note that it's cubic metres (steres) and not square metres.

Also the concept of "bois d'oeuvre" (which is lumber, it seems) is problematic, is it not?
Does the wood have to be in semi-processed form, i.e. those trunks you see without their branches, in piles? I can't picture that on an estate like this.


By the way, off-topic again I'm afraid, "domaine" should be translated as "estate", surely?
You've been here too long (or not long enough), like me, I think.

(I seem to remember I had a flight to Ireland cancelled in 1999 due to the storms referred to in Daryo's reference...the grass runways at Beauvais were damaged or something...)
Daryo Apr 28, 2023:
see
https://www.ign.fr/publications-de-l-ign/Institut/Publicatio...

10 occurrences of "dégâts diffus" in the right context.

I means a localised partial damage to the woodland, or a very small area of total damage. As opposed to a large area totally devastated by fire of storm.
Mpoma (asker) Apr 28, 2023:
@Tony You're right of course. My pedantic mind makes me wonder why bother stipulating so specifically that the damage is diffus: suppose it's NOT diffus, but all concentrated in one spot? Presumably we're meant to assume the same limit applies.
Tony M Apr 28, 2023:
@ Asker 'diffus' is often used in this sense, sort of by opposition with 'concentré' — little bits of damage spread over a wide area; for example, the odd tree burned here and there.

Like a 'douleur diffuse' — not specifically localised in some given spot.

Proposed translations

+4
37 mins
Selected

Scattered damage

I found this on a hunch. Not sure it fits your context.

Online:
Storms cause scattered damage - Defiance
Severe storms that rolled through the area late Monday afternoon caused scattered wind damage throughout the area.
Peer comment(s):

agree Conor McAuley
2 hrs
agree philgoddard
4 hrs
agree Sheri P
6 hrs
agree ph-b (X)
7 hrs
Something went wrong...
3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks, looks like you posted this first. "
-1
26 mins

overall damage

in the sense of 'the extent of the widespread damage';

However, it is hereby specified that this promise of sale may not be called into question if the overall damage covers less than 1500 m3, but rather that the Beneficiary's rights shall then be subrogated to the Promissor's rights with regard to the insurance company (in the event that the loss incurred was covered by the insurance contract).
Peer comment(s):

disagree Daryo : What's the point of having samples of real-life use of a term *in the right context* accessible in seconds if instead we start assuming? // How many times do you need to find out the meaning in context is *not exactly the expected one* to start checking?
57 mins
It is reasonable to assume that real life examples may vary so much fom the context in question that they may not be relevant.
neutral AllegroTrans : That is kind of implied but it's not the meaning of "diffus"
2 hrs
Yep, thanks.
Something went wrong...
1 hr

scattered damage

Dégâts diffus seems to be a thing in forestry and agriculture, including vineyards. It is opposed to dégats massifs.

"In affected areas, defoliation intensity continued to be low-tomoderate and was primarily restricted to the upper crown of large trees and diffuse damage over understory hosts."
https://www.fs.usda.gov/foresthealth/docs/fhh/OR_FHH_2008.pd...

"Forest storm damage is more frequent on acidic soils
[ … ] Data from 969 sites in France, southern Germany and Switzerland was analysed with multiple logistic regression models. Variables found to be significantly related to storm damage, which was mainly scattered damage in our study, were "country", "soil pH", "proportion of coniferous trees", "slope", "humus type", "stand height", and "altitude"."
https://www.afs-journal.org/articles/forest/abs/2005/04/F503...
[The authors appear to be French, Swiss and Austrian]

"Large and uniformly distributed damage outbreaks were well captured by an NFI-type inventory, but scattered damage outbreaks produced estimates with poor precision"
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270535284_On_the_po...
[article published in Silva Fennica, journal of the The Finish [sic!] Society of Forest Science. The authors appear to be Swedish. But Finns and Swedes surely know their trees …]

"Strong winds frequently cause scattered damage in forests. Although much less noticeable than catastrophic storm damage, the accumulative effect can be significant in terms of volume loss and negative impacts on wood quality."
https://www.scionresearch.com/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/57...
[from good ol' New Zealand]

The following are taken straight from the Google results, the actual articles being inaccessible.
"If your woodlot has scattered damage, you may wish to have a forester examine"
"In Green County, widely scattered damage was reported along a 10 mile stretch"
They are from Wisconsin (Swedes again?) (https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/topic/forestlandowners/stormrecove...

"Although the spatial alignment of the data is not perfect, probably due to uncertainties in the sketchmapping process, the general patterns are similar, with extensive damage in the floodplains and scattered damage elsewhere. The expected relationships between the predicted forest damage and the auxiliary variables were found"
https://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/42226/PDF

Note from asker:
I'm inclining towards this... but I do think it sounds odd (in the same way in the ST) to say "the promise may not be contested if scattered damage is less than X" ... so can it be contested in the case of "non-scattered damage" of less than X? Seems quite an important thing to want to know!
Peer comment(s):

neutral Daryo : there is another element: "dégâts diffus" are areas that are only "partially damaged", which doesn't exclude that it could be a big area in total - like 80% of the forest suffering 15% damage after a storm.
10 mins
agree Conor McAuley : I think "partially damaged" may be implied, but the concept isn't contained in the word "diffus", that's my take on it, anyway.
53 mins
neutral philgoddard : I don't understand why you've posted this again.
3 hrs
disagree Andrew Bramhall : Agree with Phil G
11 hrs
Something went wrong...
+3
1 hr

diffuse damage

dégâts diffus = many spots of partial damage, as opposed to one clearly delimited area of total damage.

see
https://www.ign.fr/publications-de-l-ign/Institut/Publicatio...

https://www.keraunos.org/actualites/fil-infos/2021/juin/orag...

https://journals.openedition.org/physio-geo/1014


search for: "diffuse damage" forest

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2023-04-28 09:04:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

This "diffuse damage" is defined by the volume of damaged trees (max 1500m3), NOT by the surface of the forest where it occured - which makes sense for partial damage in many spots.

You can also see in the first doc that "dégâts diffus" do not even register in aerial surveys of storm damage, because they are localised only partially damaged spots.
Peer comment(s):

agree AllegroTrans : I see no reason to shy away from the literal translation
3 mins
Especially when after checking it turns out that it makes perfect sense. Thanks!
agree Emmanuella
2 hrs
Merci!
agree FPC
11 hrs
Merci!
Something went wrong...
2 hrs

scattered damage

I was researching while you all were posting answers...

See Discussion.
Peer comment(s):

disagree Andrew Bramhall : Even so, is it really necessary to post the same answer a third time, with such a time lag that you must have seen the previous two beforehand?// No, you're taking the gypsies' kiss, sorry.You haven't even posted any results of your "research".
45 mins
Well, it seems that Discussion entries update in real time, but answers don't...my logic really was that I referred to an answer in a Discussion entry, so then I had to post the answer!!!
agree Bourth : Happens.
1 hr
I have rabbit holes in rabbit holes in rabbit holes...by the time I'd read about the storms in 1999, it was almost time for lunch! / I tried to look into Daryo's reference, got not much, then a bit about timber/lumber/wood and then 1999 and the storms...
Something went wrong...
+1
2 hrs

randomly dispersed (aftermath of) damage

I'm not sure what - even with the luxury of fastening on one single term in a large translation job - is the problem with diffuse and the foregone - but mistaken - conclusion that dégâts is translatable by 'damage only', rather than - pace and courtesy of ProZ regulars - dilapidations or depredations.

> by opposition with = unlike other contributors whose English has been influenced by long residence in a French- or Denglish-etc. speaking country, I would let other legal & insurance terms, like dilapidations, ought to get a look-in.

Diffus: diffuse, random, Dict. Gen. de la Ind. Tech., Ernst.
Peer comment(s):

agree AllegroTrans : "dispersed" is also good (without "randomly")
56 mins
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

1 hr
Reference:

Diffuse - + synonyms

Adjective

Spread out over a wide area

scattered
dispersed
spread
disseminated
distributed
diffused
strewn
circulated
widespread
broadcast
expanded
extended
prevalent
propagated
radiated
universal
unconcentrated
spread-out
spread out
not concentrated
sprinkled
sown
sowed
strewed
littered
spread evenly
planted
cast
bestrewn
“Diffuse smoke from the fire fills the eastern sky, suppressing details.”
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree philgoddard
3 hrs
thanks
neutral Andrew Bramhall : The past participle of the verb 'to strew' is actually 'strewN', not 'strewED';
21 hrs
I suggest you take this up with Encyclopedia Britannica since you appear to have superior knowledge: https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/strew
Something went wrong...
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