Andy Watkinson (asker) Sep 14, 2022:

Again, many thanks to all for your answers, comments, analysis, suggestions, etc.

They've helped me to answer the client, which was the reason for posting in the first place.

I'll close it now before the dreaded "close KudoZ question" reminders flood my inbox.

¡Gracias de nuevo!



I'd like to choose all of them as the "selected answer" but will have to make do with closing without grading.

Andy Watkinson (asker) Sep 12, 2022:

Many thanks, Toni.

Especially pertinent as I'm preparing my response to the client very shortly.

Toni Castano Sep 12, 2022:

My point of view (2) Another dubious point is to confirm whether the English translation should be better expressed with “is” or “are”, i.e. whether the subject is singular or plural (not Andy´s question, I know!).
A simple examination of the examples displayed on the web confirms that both options are used (“is not met” and “are not met”, being the latter even clearly more frequent), so the question whether the subject is better interpreted as singular or plural is ambiguous.

Toni Castano Sep 12, 2022:

My point of view (1) My interpretation of the highly interesting query raised by Andy.

Si no se cumple alguna de estas condiciones (…)
This means that clause B (= consequence) will come into force if any (= cualquiera) of the conditions is not fulfilled.
If any of these conditions is not met/fulfilled (…)

The Spanish is unmistakable here being its meaning that it just suffices with one, just one, of the conditions (= alguna) not being met for clause B to apply (= the consequence of unfulfilment)

BUT see this in contrast now:

Si no se cumple ninguna de estas condiciones (…)
This means that clause B (= consequence) will come into force if none (= ninguna, absolutamente ninguna) of such conditions is not fulfilled.
If none of these conditions is met/fulfilled (…)

The distinction in Spanish between “alguna” and “ninguna” is just as clear as water in both examples. But I am just wondering if the same applies to English (“any” and “none” in the examples shown).

Robert Carter Sep 9, 2022:

Hahaha, if it's any consolation, that's exactly what happened to me, I've been saying it both ways since I got up this morning, and now I can't see how they don't mean both the same and opposite things! I think we need a mathematician or a philosopher here...

Andy Watkinson (asker) Sep 9, 2022:

Thanks Robert. Yep, I'm sure, because that's what the reviewer stated and from the context that *is* the intended meaning. Can't give out much more due to confidentiality.

I posed the question because after repeating the phrases dozens of times like a mantra, they've ceased to mean anything to me. It's not that I think the client's wrong, but was wondering if others would translate it the same way, which appears to be the case....

Robert Carter Sep 9, 2022:

In fact, it's a fascinating question. What does "none" actually mean, and for that matter, what does "any" mean when used in a negative construction? They're both ambiguous and probably shouldn't be used in contract drafting in the place of actual numbers, and certainly not in a negative construction.

More so for the Spanish "alguna". There is a case to be made for interpreting that either way, i.e., as a set of 1 or more elements, and as a set of 0 elements. (See https://dle.rae.es/alguno , senses 5 and 6.)

For me, the problem lies in the negativity expressed. If we simplify it to numbers, e.g., using "1", we could express it as "if one of these conditions is not met". The most usual interpretation of this would be "if one or more of these conditions are not met", but we could equally make a case for interpreting that same sentence as "if one of these conditions is met"—it's at least grammatically possible, depending on your viewpoint.

BTW, Andy, are you certain that was the original sense? Your statement "One of these conditions must be met. Otherwise, "X" is clear and unambiguous; whereas the Spanish sentence you posted definitely isn't.

Taña Dalglish Sep 9, 2022:

@ Andy / @ Neil Sorry, I am late to the party, LOL. I agree with Neil.
As I said in my answer, "should any of these (I had "the") conditions not be met ...", I believe implies "one" could be fulfilled. Whereas "should none of these conditions be met" (leaving out "not"), it would mean "none" were met. HTH. Regards.

Andy Watkinson (asker) Sep 9, 2022:

@Neil
Sorry if it wasn't clear. After getting the answers to the question posted I followed up with a second question regarding the use of none.

@Robert. Yep. A reviewer.

The intended sense of the original was "One of these conditions must be met. Otherwise, "X" is not possible."

By using "any", it means that *all* of the conditions must be met.

neilmac Sep 9, 2022:

@Andy I'm sorry, I can't find your previous query. I scrolled down through the list of queries to around the beginning of August, and I can't see any. If you send me a link, I'll have a look at it.

AllegroTrans Sep 9, 2022:

With Neilmac No, you could not substitute "none" into the sentence and end up with the same meaning

neilmac Sep 9, 2022:

@Andy In principle, I think that "alguna" means if any (one) of the conditions are not met. "None" would mean that none of them are fulfilled. ("If none of the conditions are met... / si ninguna ... cumple las condiciones mínimas...) etc.

Robert Carter Sep 8, 2022:

Hi Andy, "none" would be perfectly fine too, as it's the negative of "any". Problems with a reviewer?

Andy Watkinson (asker) Sep 8, 2022:

Many thanks to all those who've answered.

Next question.

Would any of you (or anyone else, for that matter) have used "none" instead of "any"?

If so, why?
If not, why doesn't it make sense?

Thanks again.