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Resuelve y resolverse
cadena de firma

Glossary entry

Spanish term or phrase:

CIUDADANA LICENCIADA

English translation:

Attorney

Added to glossary by yolanda Speece
Sep 4, 2022 17:13
1 yr ago
37 viewers *
Spanish term

CIUDADANA LICENCIADA

Spanish to English Law/Patents Law: Contract(s) DIVORCE DECREE
It is in a divorce decree from Mexico.

It is a title of the, I am guessing, the clerk, whoever is helping facilitate this divorce.

I don't know what else is needed for this. I get accused of not putting enough context but this is the title of this particular individual.

Would you just put LIC. and the person's name? What would be best?

Thank you!
Proposed translations (English)
4 +2 Attorney
5 +1 ATTORNEY AT LAW (AAL)
4 +1 Ms.
4 Licenciada
3 -1 Hono(u)rable (Lady) Counsel
References
We've had this before

Discussion

AllegroTrans Sep 5, 2022:
A problem we have... is that this person has a degree, but we don't know for sure that she is a lawyer. She might have an economics degree and have been trained as a court clerk. I personally have no idea whether all court clerks in Mexico are qualified lawyers but fwiw in England and Wales, except in Magistrates' Courts, they are civil servants trained up in court procedure.

And so far, we don't even know for sure whether this actually is the clerk. Yolanda is "guessing" that she is, so we might all be wasting our time.

Yolanda?!!
AllegroTrans Sep 5, 2022:
@ Myriam Totally agree
Myriam Seers Sep 5, 2022:
Hono(u)rable (Lady) Counsel does not work Adrian, "Honourable Lady Counsel" cannot by used in this context. In all common law jurisdictions, "Honourable" it is a political honourific title conferred on cabinet ministers and certain types of judges. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forms_of_address_in_the_United...

In the UK, "Lady" is an honourific conferred on the wives of "Lords" and female Supreme Court judges. See same link.

Again in the UK, "counsel" is reserved for barristers. Elsewhere, it can be used more broadly, but is never used as a prefix to a title, and would not be used in any event unless she is a practising litigation lawyer.
Myriam Seers Sep 5, 2022:
Ms./Mr./Dr./Prof. are the standard pre-name titles Barbara, you disagreed with my suggestion on the basis that "Ms." is "antiquated". With respect, that is plainly not the case at all, and is certainly not the case in the legal world. It is, on the contrary, universally used. "Mrs." is antiquated and is not used in the professional context anymore, certainly not in North America. Ms./Mr./Dr./Prof. are basically the only pre-name titles commonly used in English, and therefore are the pre-name titles we have to choose from to translate "C. Lic.". "Ms." is the appropriate one in this context for all the reasons already discussed.
As I noted below, even if she were a practising lawyer, "attorney" would not be appropriate for several reasons, and in any event is not a pre-name title in English. One cannot refer to "Attorney Firstname Lastname". That is not correct English usage.

Barbara Cochran, MFA Sep 4, 2022:
Even If The Term "Clerk of Courts" Were Correct... ...I just checked the title that I went and picked up late last year, after I paid cash for a new car, and the name of the Clerk of Courts for the county I live in, in this case, a male, has no "Mr" before his name. So I highly doubt that if our Clerk of Counts were a woman, "Ms" would appear before her name.
Myriam Seers Sep 4, 2022:
@ Barbara You've disagreed with my proposal on the basis that one never addresses court clerks as "Ms." or "Mr." in the US, but that's just not the case. They are referred to that way, and are in any case not referred to as "attorney", even in the US. Lawyers are referred to as "attorney" in the US, and not elsewhere.

Here is just one example:
https://www.formsofaddress.info/clerk-of-a-court/

How to Address a Clerk of a Lower Court

—-Envelope, official:
—-—-Mr./Ms. (full name)
—-—-Clerk of the (court)
—-—-(Address)

—-—-—-Which looks like:
—-—-—-—-Ms. Lynn C. Horsky
—-—-—-—-Clerk of the Traffic Court
—-—-—-—-321 Lewis Speedway
—-—-—-—-St. Augustine, FL 9876

—-Letter salutation:
—-—-Dear Mr./Ms. (surname):
philgoddard Sep 4, 2022:
Context What do you mean by "the clerk, whoever is helping to facilitate the divorce"? What does the Spanish say?
Juan Jacob Sep 4, 2022:
Deberías saber perfectamente que, en México, lo de C. (Ciudadano o ciudadana) es un mero formalismo que no se traduce y que Licenciado/a es, por extensión (Y mal utilizado), un Licenciado en Derecho, es decir, un abogado.

Proposed translations

+2
8 mins
Selected

Attorney

It should appear right after her name.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 mins (2022-09-04 17:22:30 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

https://www.proz.com/kudoz/spanish-to-english/law-general/25...
Note from asker:
Henry is a BADASS!!! He is all knowing. MUCH RESPECT!!!
Peer comment(s):
agree Toni Castano : Well, madam, it´s difficult to challenge Henry Hinds´ knowledge of Mexican law (my highest respect for him, we all miss him, R.I.P.).
19 mins
Yes, sir! I echo your respect for Henry. Thanks for your "agree"
neutral patinba : As Henry said, anybody with any bachelor's degree is a Licenciado/a
51 mins
I don't think her title would have any legal relevance then, in terms of this being an official court document.
disagree Myriam Seers : For the reasons set out in discussion and in my proposal
3 hrs
agree Jessica Noyes
4 hrs
Thanks, Jessica. From the looks of it, you would probably know.
agree neilmac : Like She-Hulk, :-)
14 hrs
LOL...Thanks!
neutral AllegroTrans : Giving everyone with a degree a title simply isn't done in English-speaking countries, but if this is important I would simply add "lawyer" (i.e. a country-neutral term) after her name, PROVIDED that she actually is a lawyer (but we don't know for sure)
20 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
1 hr

Licenciada

Don't guess the person has a law degree. It is perfectly OK to leave the title in Spanish, leaving out the "ciudadana"
Peer comment(s):
neutral philgoddard : It also means attorney. http://wordreference.com/es/en/translation.asp?spen=licencia... - the context would make this clear, but as usual we don't have it.
9 mins
Yes.
neutral Toni Castano : I can´t imagine a non attorney doing this kind of job. Admittedly, I am not Mexican...
18 mins
Maybe.
neutral Juan Jacob : Como mexicano, licenciado/a es forzosamente un licenciado/a en derecho en este contexto. Leave it in Spanish, no way!
50 mins
OK.
neutral AllegroTrans : Agree with not guessing that she is a lawyer; she might simply have a degree in Economics or History for all we know
19 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
2 hrs

Ms.

Since the equivalent title does not exist in English, I would recommend simply translating to Ms. That is how my colleagues and I usually translate "Lic." from Spanish or "Avv." from Italian. If the fact that she is a lawyer is important to highlight, you could specify that elsewhere in the translation, if appropriate. "Lawyer" is quite neutral. "Attorney" is U.S. usage. UK usage would be "barrister" or "solicitor", but neither would apply here, since she is a court clerk. Lawyer is universally neutral.
If (and only if) for a U.S. audience, you could add "Esq." as a suffix, which means the same thing but is strictly a U.S. thing.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Barbara Cochran, MFA : Even if she is the clerk of courts, here in the US, "Ms." is never used before her actual name. That kind of designation is now considered antiquated on court documents here, even if "Ms." , is considered a standard desig. for any adult woman now.
42 mins
Hi Barbara, that's not accurate. One absolutely refers to clerks as "Ms.", etc. Not as "Attorney". See discussion.
neutral Adrian MM. : In England & Wales, it's always Mrs. even if unmarried: e.g. Mrs. Justice XYZ. There's only one dissident female judge who calls herself Ms. Justice and she shall remain nameless https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Court_judge_(England_and_...
1 hr
agree AllegroTrans : Important to note that the Asker is only "guessing" that this is the Clerk! But yes, if she *is* the clerk, standard "Ms."
2 hrs
agree Robert Carter : Completely agree. I've been translating it this way (to US Eng) for the last 20 years or so. It's unnatural and unnecessary to translate "Lic.," "Mtra.," "Ing.," "QFB.," or most of the numerous titles used in Spanish (unless it's a CV or similar context)
7 hrs
Something went wrong...
-1
4 hrs

Hono(u)rable (Lady) Counsel

Ciudadano Juez : (Mex.) Honorable Judge, West.

Licenciado *is* invariably a lawyer in Mexico.

No need to criticise the gender of Lady. A *woman* Notary in Central London refused to certify as true any translation denoting the sex of the subject in point.
Example sentence:

The Honourable Counsel: Richard Godson, MP QC | Godson, Mr David | ISBN: 9781974201341 |

Reference:

http://judiciary.scot/home/judiciary/judicial-office-holders/senators-of-the-college-of-justice/the-right-hon-lady-dorrian

Peer comment(s):
agree Barbara Cochran, MFA : Love the way this sounds, even though I'm a US translator! I'm not at all into discriminating against other translators' responses, just because they happen to have lived all or part of their lives in another cultural milieu.
55 mins
Thanks and gracias, Barbara. In Mexico and Austria, titles tend to get exaggerated. Downgrading a uni. degree to a college diploma, as one Woman Solicitor did in our Central London T&I office, caused an almighty row and threat of a prof. neg. suit.
disagree AllegroTrans : I do not love the way this sounds and a court clerk would never be styled in this way. It certainly is not a functional translation of the ST. // you are seriously suggesting this as a sound translation method?
16 hrs
A court clerk in Mexico would, besides which it is always an idea to inflate court personnel's quallifications, Otherwise, I'd rather follow Rebecca J.'s and Tom West's 'Hono(u)rable' translation than HH's questionable omission of the term.
disagree Myriam Seers : Regardless of loving the way it sounds, all three terms are verboten in this context. See my discussion entry.
16 hrs
No, Myriam. This is a court clerk in Mexico, not in Canada, and Tom West's law & business dictionary clearly enshrines 'Hono(u)rable' for the Citizen term.
Something went wrong...
+1
2 days 12 hrs

ATTORNEY AT LAW (AAL)

In Mexico, there are certain language formalities usually applied in legal jargon. In this case, if you want an “accurate Translation”, my suggestion is CITIZEN ATTORNEY AT LAW. You may simply use ATTORNEY AT LAW.

Kind regards.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 23 hrs (2022-09-07 16:15:47 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Hi, there. (AllegroTrans) I do appreciate your kind remark. However, based on my seasoned expertise in the Mexican legal jargon and since we are dealing with a divorce decree, in a certain way, the degree and the subject matter of the specialty may be implicitly understood. Of course, “Lic.” does mean Licenciado, and in the lawyers’ guild, such is the “generally accepted” term to refer to an Attorney at Law. Otherwise, I would not recommend this specific translation.
And once more, I really appreciate your insight.
Best regards!
Peer comment(s):
neutral AllegroTrans : All we know is that this person has a degree (not necessarily in law) AND we have no way of knowing if she is an attorney
9 hrs
I’ve just added a note to my explanation. I’m looking forward to knowing your kind opinion!
agree Barbara Cochran, MFA : Certainly nothing wrong with this option, either. Esp. if it is determined, according to protocol, in this specific case, that a more formal register should be used on the document.
12 hrs
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

23 mins
Reference:

We've had this before

Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Juan Jacob : Como mil veces, al menos.
4 mins
agree Toni Castano
6 mins
neutral Myriam Seers : attorney is only US usage. Lawyer is neutral/international.
2 hrs
agree Barbara Cochran, MFA : Didn't I post this link, anyway, more than a few hours before? So why not give credit where it's due... On my response...
3 hrs
neutral AllegroTrans : Good point by Myriam but fwiw, in E&W, except in Magistrates' Courts, court clerks are not lawyers, but civil servants
4 hrs
Something went wrong...
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