AllegroTrans Sep 7, 2022:

We won't get the full sentence Yolanda stiil doesn't grasp the essential point - that we "out here" cannot see her document, and translating imcomplete fragments is unreliable. This is not rocket science.

Myriam Seers Sep 6, 2022:

It might be fine without "and", but hard to say since it is a segment fragment (hence being more literal). I echo the request for the full sentence.

AllegroTrans Sep 6, 2022:

@ AMM and all 'Howbeit and...' works. That's why I used it. 'However and...'. doesn't.

I fail to see Adrian's point here. Even if we stretch a point and "admit""howbeit" as a valid term, I see absolutely no difference. Why can "and" not follow "however"?

However (sorry), let me suggest that for fluency and style, we omit "and"
Is anything lost? It would still be useful to see the rest of this long and unwieldy sentence though. Yolanda, can you post it please?

Andrew Bramhall Sep 5, 2022:

"Howzat!" "How's that!""Howbeit?" Yes, found it! No less than the venerable and revered late Victorian England cricketer, Dr.W.G.Grace, used it when appealing the dismissal of the batsman he was bowling or fielding to at the time, to the umpire, although by about 1895( almost 50 years aftrer it had fallen into disuse in law) it had already morphed into "Howzat!", and fallen into disuse, apparently. As an honorary Englishman, AMM will doubtless have heard of the great man, but in case the omniscient one hasn't: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._G._Grace

Andrew Bramhall Sep 4, 2022:

Dangerous to assume too much... ...as to what exams i might or might not have taken....but in this case,despite the bulk of the translation work I do actually being legal contracts, you are right that I have no formal legal qualifications in the subject area you cite. But in all honesty, that is probably an advantage, being unencumbered by artificial stylistic convention, not becoming a slave to orthodoxy and rigidity of expression.

Adrian MM. Sep 4, 2022:

English legal drafting skills - or lack of them @ It's amazing how a critic of my answer (AB)- who has never taken or passed an exam in Anglo-American legal drafting (Myriam S. must have) - has merely re-arranged the word order. 'Howbeit and...' works. That's why I used it. 'However and...'. doesn't.

Andrew Bramhall Sep 4, 2022:

Well done to Allegro! for finally catching on about AMM's recessive gene, backdated to the Dickensian era, and honed by years spent in the musty corridors of the London Inns of Court and Chancery.I've been saying it for ages! And a nice touch of self-deprecating humour from the man himself there; and it's true, the use of plain language causes him an apoplectic fit!

Myriam Seers Sep 4, 2022:

I am also an English legal drafting specialist (as you will note from my profile or if you Google me, I am a practising lawyer and have been since 2008, having spent 14 of those years in Big Law). I have taught legal writing and drafting for about 10 years to lawyers and law students. The plain language movement in law has been growing ever since I was in law school, whether people like it or not. I think that it's a positive development, assuming that it does not come at the expense of precision, which is always the main goal of most legal drafting.

Adrian MM. Sep 4, 2022:

legal drafting expert @ Phil G. 'Don't use the term "plain language" in front of Adrian. It makes steam come out of his ears.' Best follow Phil G's instinct as an English legal drafting specialist.

Myriam Seers Sep 4, 2022:

@Phil @Paul You may be right. I think it depends on what the rest of the paragraph says. I would be fine with leaving out the "however" or the "now" in a non-legal translation. Here, I think we need to leave it in, but be accurate about which we pick. This is similar to a discussion Phil and I were having under another of Yolanda's questions: when the Spanish structure doesn't really have a true equivalent in English, do we stray a bit from the text in favour of readability, or do we sacrifice a bit of readability in favour of perfect accuracy? I think with most translations, usually the former is the right answer, but with legal translation, we probably usually want to favour the latter. You'd be astonished at the minor shades of nuanced meaning that gets parties into litigation. Unfortunately, in legal translation, we have to be perfectly accurate even if it means being less idiomatic.
SO I don't think we can just erase "ahora bien". The question is then whether we translate it as "now" or "however", and I think the answer requires the rest of the paragraph. Could you post it, Yolanda?

philgoddard Sep 4, 2022:

Yes Paul is right. "However" doesn't make sense in the context, and you could simply leave it out of the translation.

Paul Ryan Sep 4, 2022:

HOWEVER - not it just means 'now' - there is no defeated expectation

philgoddard Sep 4, 2022:

Myriam Don't use the term "plain language" in front of Adrian. It makes steam come out of his ears.

Myriam Seers Sep 4, 2022:

@ Adrian Re your comment that as a practising commercial lawyer in Canada, I should know that this language is not used in divorce decrees. Which language? Also, the Spanish is written in modern language, so there is no need not to replicate it. There is a plain language movement the world over in law, so there is no need to overcomplicate things.

Here are a few examples of modern divorce decrees. You'll see that they are written in modern language that is clear and easy to understand for normal people. That's what we need to make happen as translators, unless the source text is written in a very archaic way, in which can we may need to match the register. This one isn't.
USA:
https://www.survivedivorce.com/divorce-decree-divorce-certif...
UK:
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-courts-boveydecree-nisi-10...

Myriam Seers Sep 4, 2022:

@ Adrian re your comment to my comment LOL. But why? I think "however" is a widely accepted translation of "ahora bien" and also happens to be plain language, so there is no need to overcomplicate. It's also not a "context" but rather a "legal framework", and I've stated my opinion about "within" vs "under" several times now.

Myriam Seers Sep 4, 2022:

To further clarify why I added a new proposed translation using "under" even though "within" is also correct, to me, as a practitioner in the field, to operate "within a legal framework" connotes something that might have otherwise been unlawful (but it's not because it is within the applicable legal framework, such as for example the status of cannabis retailing in Canada now). Or it can connote something that is within framework B rather than framework A. We tend to say that something is "under the legal framework" if it is done pursuant to/in accordance with etc. that framework. It's a razor-thin nuance, no doubt, but it's there, so that's why I proposed a different translation to preserve the minor nuance.

Myriam Seers Sep 4, 2022:

Agreed, see my comments below. "Howbeit" is not used in current international commercial law (different word entirely than "albeit" so I don't understand the point). I think Andrew's translation is mostly right, but I think "under" is a better translation than "within" both from the perspective of usage in commercial law (see reference examples in my proposed translation) and faithfulness to the source text, so I've proposed my own translation, but I think Andrew's is close as well (I feel the need to specify this, having once experienced the total and utter wrath of Andrew for disagreeing with him. Andrew: you're not wrong, to be clear. If you disagree with me, fine, but no need for a diatribe in response. Let's keep it professional!)

philgoddard Sep 4, 2022:

Tomasso "Albeit" is fine, because it serves a useful purpose and no other word has come along to take its place. But no one says "howbeit".

yolanda Speece (asker) Sep 4, 2022:

AS I STATED ANDREW This is a divorce decree. this is everything that the statement makes. What more do you need?

I don't understand what you want me to say.

yolanda Speece (asker) Sep 4, 2022:

Well said Juan. Now how would you translate that?

Andrew Bramhall Sep 4, 2022:

"Howbeit"??? "Context"?? Not out,according to the umpire, but the bowler has sent it upstairs for a review. Surely this is one question where you do need 'legal framework' or similar?

Juan Jacob Sep 4, 2022:

Sería, bien escrito: Ahora bien, y bajo en el marco de referencia legal, nos encontramos...

philgoddard Sep 4, 2022:

Ahora bien means however.