Glossary entry

German term or phrase:

Flgr. Abw. Trupp

English translation:

air defense gun section / air defense squad / air defense gun crew

Added to glossary by sparta1978
May 9, 2022 23:13
2 yrs ago
23 viewers *
German term

Flgr. Abw. Trupp

German to English Other Military / Defense
The sentence, translated from German, is: “Tank company is to be reinforced by one **Flgr. Abw. Trupp** from the battalion.”

flgr. abw. = Air Defense

What unit size is “Trupp” in this case? This is my question.

From a German tank unit order circa 1941.

Discussion

sparta1978 (asker) May 12, 2022:
If you need help with military terms... reach out. I worked as a military subject matter expert, and it is one of my areas of expertise.

I enjoy helping fellow translators, and taking on interesting and meaningful projects.
sparta1978 (asker) May 12, 2022:
Summary of needed terms to accurately translate The unit we are looking at is:
Wehrmacht Panzer Battalion early in WWII (1941). Panzer Battalion which has Panzers (tanks organized into tank companies) and support elements(Air Defense, Engineer, Artillery, Maintenance, and so on.)

Air Defense Platoon (Flieger Abwehr Zug) is a fairly small unit. I found its KStN. It consists of 4 AA Guns (Trupp).

If it helps out its companies with air defense, and has just one AA gun per company, and one for itself (HQ), if it divides them equally.



Organization and naming of small Air Defense units in US doctrine is this:
Battery (company)
Fire section (platoon)
Gun section (squad)

The correct translation terms here are "gun section" or "squad." I tested both and had my military colleagues give feedback, squad works best.

This may seem like a lot of research, but if you intend to accurately translate military subject matter, particularly tactical materials, understanding the terms is paramount. Getting upset that a question is complex misses the point of being on proz. A professional forum is for understanding first and then translating. Sharing resources, and working together.
sparta1978 (asker) May 10, 2022:
Guten Tag Barbara To your point, if we do not understand the term, we would not translate it too well.
Example is Trupp. A squad sized unit in German Army.

In British armed forces, a Troop is an equivalent of a platoon. A different sized unit. Four times the size of a German Trupp.
A Squadron - a company equivalent, a unit 8-16 times larger than a German Trupp, and not applicable to that branch of the military.

It would be a mistake to underestimate understanding the terms we are translating.
Even if others are doing it.
sparta1978 (asker) May 10, 2022:
US Artillery (and Air Defense organization)

Battery (Company equivalent)
Fire section (Platoon equivalent)
Gun section (Squad equivalent)

Squad, by far, is the clearest term right now, as everyone in the military realm will know what is meant.

if you have a reference of Trupp being used for air defense artillery in German literature, it could be helpful, as I could juxtapose it with US equivalent..
Barbara Schmidt, M.A. (X) May 10, 2022:
Hallo Sparta, ich bin mir nicht sicher, ob Du hier mit Deinen Fragen richtig bist. Es ist ja eine Übersetzungsplattform, bei der es um bestimmte Begriffe geht, und kein historisches oder militärisches Forum, wo sie Dir bestimmt genauere Antworten geben können.

Proposed translations

+3
3 hrs
Selected

anti-aircaft gun crew

The size depends on the gun. Flakvierling_38 had a crew of 8, The Flak 30 a crew of 5.
Die kleinste militärische Einheit ist der Trupp mit zehn bis elf Soldaten. https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1075284/umfra...

Page 6 It mounted a single Flakvierling 38 antiaircraft gun and had a crew of eight.
https://tinyurl.com/2bf24paa

But the Flak 30 had a crew of 5
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_cm_Flak_30,_Flak_38_and_Flak...

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Note added at 4 hrs (2022-05-10 03:19:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

A Trupp is about the same size as a US Army squad. But squads don't operate anti-aircraft guns. They are called crews. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squad#:~:text=NATO and US doct...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2022-05-10 03:21:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Die kleinste militärische Einheit ist der Trupp mit zehn bis elf Soldaten https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1075284/umfra...
Note from asker:
Thank you for a well sourced answer. I am looking for the unit size, not crew size. Squad, troop, etc.
You added an excellent link after an initial answer. Here is an article with crew and squad both used in a current military publication https://www.army.mil/article/223209/devil_brigade_soldiers_showcase_air_defense_capabilities
Peer comment(s):

agree philgoddard : This question doesn't belong here, but you've answered it well.
6 hrs
agree writeaway : I also agree with Barbara's comment in the Dbox. No answers to asker's De-En military questions seem to meet asker's requirements. He doesn't seem to want translations. If he wants to research historical details, he needs to find a specialized site.
8 hrs
agree Cillie Swart : seems plausible, thanks for sharing
21 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Adrian, Kim and Barbara, I appreciate your inputs. It helped me zero on the right terms for the translation. Kim, you had solid track of both notes and logical reasoning which I appreciated. See notes for explanation of unit size identification and translation in the context of the German Army circa WWII. Particularly if you work with tactical level unit documents or their organization. As for comments about this question not belonging here or being held to too high a standard, please understand that I strive for a high degree of accuracy. Perhaps also ask yourself if you are being welcoming and helping understand the technical term at hand, which is absolutely a requirement to translate it accurately. Let me know if you have military related questions in the future that require high level of understanding and translation accuracy. Air Defense Gun Section / Air Defense Squad / Air Defense Gun Crew "
6 hrs

air defense troop // air defense squadron

https://www.eliteukforces.info/royal-marines/Air-Defence-Tro... Marines Air Defence Troop is a small unit within the Surveillance Reconnaissance Squadron (SRS) of 3 Commando Brigade's 30 Commando IX Group. Air Defence Troop provide point air defence for the Brigade, usually covering the HQ or other vital elements.

The Air Defence Troop use portable surface to air missiles in the form of the Starstreak High Velocity Missile system

Royal Marines with Air Defence Troop are Heavy Weapons (Air Defence) specialists. As the unit may provide manpower for SRS operations, some members may be parachute trained or trained in the use of other heavy weapons such as machine guns.

US:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Air_Forc...
Note from asker:
Thank you for your suggestion. For Phil, we need to translate to English, so understanding US doctrine(or British) and terminology that goes along with it, is quite important.
Peer comment(s):

neutral philgoddard : This is about Germany, not the UK or US.
3 hrs
Something went wrong...
1 day 22 hrs
German term (edited): Flugrakete-Abwehr-Trupp

Missile Defens/ce (Battalion) Detachment

If it's Flugrakete or Flugkörper, then it's a missile.

Trupp: mil. detachment, Langenscheidt's enz. WB

Again, the query of numbers or size is borderline translation-related as e.g. a Flight Wing in both the British RAF and USAF (courtesy of our ProZ regulars, I have a UK relative who has served in both) would be too large in the context.

Note from the question: Batallion vs. Brigade detachment:

'The 49th *Missile Defense Battalion* (GMD) is an Alaska Army National Guard unit that is permanently on active duty at Fort Greely,'
Example sentence:

USA: The 10th Army Air and *Missile Defense Command* is U.S. Army Europe's executive agent for all theater air and missile defense operations and force management.

This small team of 100th Missile Defense Brigade Soldiers plays a vital role in U.S. Northern Command's GMD mission to defend the U.S. homeland and designated areas from long-range ballistic missile threats.

Note from asker:
Thank you Adrian. Another well sourced answer. I will post some materials in the discussion.
Something went wrong...
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