Oct 11, 2019 10:09
4 yrs ago
2 viewers *
French term
United Kingdom
The highest professional standards
Native in: English
Works in: Spanish to English, French to English
...en affectant cette somme du rapport qui existe entre...
French to English
Bus/Financial
Insurance
Insurance policy
I struggled to select which phrase to post, since the whole paragraph is causing me a problem, so any additional assistance would be greatly appreciated. Taken from an insurance policy (Morocco).
Réversibilité:
S’il apparaît au jour du sinistre que des montants assurés sont surestimés, la somme des excédents constatée pourra être transformée en un montant réversible en affectant cette somme du rapport qui existe entre le taux moyen des montants excédentaires et le taux moyen des montants des insuffisances. On entend par taux moyen des montants excédentaires (ou insuffisants) le rapport entre la somme de leur primes et la somme des montants assurés correspondants. Ce montant réversible ainsi obtenu sera réparti entre toutes les rubriques sous-estimées, sinistrées ou non, en proportion de leur insuffisance. Cette réversibilité :
- n’est accordée que pour des biens appartenant au même ensemble et situés dans un même lieu, pour autant qu’ils ne fassent pas l’objet d’une assurance ajustable ;
- est limitée à 10% des montants assurés sur les biens sinistrés pour lesquels la réversibilité est accordée.
Réversibilité:
S’il apparaît au jour du sinistre que des montants assurés sont surestimés, la somme des excédents constatée pourra être transformée en un montant réversible en affectant cette somme du rapport qui existe entre le taux moyen des montants excédentaires et le taux moyen des montants des insuffisances. On entend par taux moyen des montants excédentaires (ou insuffisants) le rapport entre la somme de leur primes et la somme des montants assurés correspondants. Ce montant réversible ainsi obtenu sera réparti entre toutes les rubriques sous-estimées, sinistrées ou non, en proportion de leur insuffisance. Cette réversibilité :
- n’est accordée que pour des biens appartenant au même ensemble et situés dans un même lieu, pour autant qu’ils ne fassent pas l’objet d’une assurance ajustable ;
- est limitée à 10% des montants assurés sur les biens sinistrés pour lesquels la réversibilité est accordée.
Proposed translations
(English)
Change log
Oct 11, 2019 13:23: Wendy Cummings changed "Field (write-in)" from "Insurance policy exclusio" to "Insurance policy"
Proposed translations
1 day 21 hrs
French term (edited):
en affectant cette somme du rapport qui existe entre
Selected
by applying to this amount the ratio which exists between
1) Re: “affecter de”
II.− MATH. Affecter d'un signe une quantité, un nombre. Munir une quantité quelconque d'un signe (signe plus ou moins, coefficient, etc.) de manière à la modifier par cette marque.
− P. ext., vx. Affecter (un résultat chiffré) d'une erreur de (tant ou tant)...
− Au fig. Affecter une chose d'un certain coefficient. La qualifier comme comportant ou impliquant un certain degré de (+ subst. abstr. ou adj.) :...
( http://stella.atilf.fr/Dendien/scripts/tlfiv5/visusel.exe?12... )
In other words, in your case: “applying a ratio to an amount".
2) Re: “the whole paragraph is causing me a problem, so any additional assistance would be greatly appreciated”.
This paragraph is about the possibility that insurers may offer effectively to shift sums insured or parts of them between various insured risks (réversibilité) when some of them have been underestimated and others have been overestimated. Think of it as some kind of “surplus transfer”: you make up for what’s “lacking” in one case with what’s “in excess” somewhere else. This is used so that the so-called "average rule/clause" (règle proportionnelle) doesn't penalise a bona fide insured whose over/underestimation is genuine. In a nutshell.
Cf.: Une autre clause [qui permet] d'atténuer la sous-assurance, est celle de réversibilité ou de report d'excédent. Elle peut être utilisée lorsqu'un souscripteur fait assurer plusieurs biens par la même compagnie. La clause opère une sorte de compensation lorsque des biens sont surévalués et que d'autres sont sous-évalués : la sous-assurance des uns est compensée par la surassurance des autres.
( https://www.argusdelassurance.com/reglementation/legislation... )
Your paragraph explains how insurers will work out the size of the “transfer” from the over-estimated risks to the under-estimated ones. They’ll start from la somme des excédents constatée and by applying a ratio to it (affecter la somme du rapport), they’ll know exactly how much they can “transfer”.
Then just follow your text almost literally:
en affectant cette somme du rapport > by applying to this amount [= la somme des excédents constatée] the ratio
qui existe entre > which exists between
[le taux moyen des montants excédentaires (= rapport entre la somme de leur primes et la somme des montants assurés correspondants)]
et > and
[le taux moyen des montants des insuffisances (= rapport entre la somme de leur primes et la somme des montants assurés correspondants)]
And the end of the paragraph is about the conditions under which this réversibilité transfer will be allowed.
Native speakers of English (and maths boffins!) may well write this better than I did, but no doubt as to what it all means and how it works.
Note from asker:
| Thank you very much for your clear and detailed explanation. I have come across average clauses before, but this one seemed particularly convoluted and the calculation unlike any other examples I could find, which is what threw me right off track. |
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Daryo
: you are saying the same as I did - in a different way - but you spotted right the important part - what is "applied" (i.e. "multiplied by") is a ratio between two rates, not two amounts.
5 hrs
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you. I think that the "affecter de" is key to understanding the phrase, and your explanation is very clear. "
+1
17 mins
Sandra & Kenneth Grossman
Israel
Israel
Native in English
Works in field
Israel
Quality, Reliability, Experience.
Native in: English 
, Romanian
Works in: French to English, Hebrew to English, Romanian to English, and 3 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
34
Missing phrase: according to the ratio between the excess and deficient amounts
by allocating this amt according to the ratio between the average excess amounts and the average deficient amounts
Here is the key to understanding this:
Ce montant réversible ainsi obtenu sera réparti entre toutes les rubriques sous-estimées, sinistrées ou non, en proportion de leur insuffisance
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Note added at 26 mins (2019-10-11 10:35:45 GMT)
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IOW: reversibility relates to 10% of the over-insured sum, by allocating the excess to insurance items that had been under-insured.
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Note added at 29 mins (2019-10-11 10:38:42 GMT)
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Consequently, the underinsured items will benefit of full insurance coverage
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Note added at 37 mins (2019-10-11 10:46:51 GMT)
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the missing phrase is "according to"
Here is the key to understanding this:
Ce montant réversible ainsi obtenu sera réparti entre toutes les rubriques sous-estimées, sinistrées ou non, en proportion de leur insuffisance
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 26 mins (2019-10-11 10:35:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
IOW: reversibility relates to 10% of the over-insured sum, by allocating the excess to insurance items that had been under-insured.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 29 mins (2019-10-11 10:38:42 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Consequently, the underinsured items will benefit of full insurance coverage
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 37 mins (2019-10-11 10:46:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
the missing phrase is "according to"
Note from asker:
| Thanks, it felt like something was missing, but I couldn't put my finger on it |
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Daryo
: if the fragment quoted was correctly copied it should be interpreted AS IT IS - I very much doubt that an insurance policy would contain any error of this type - too much at stake for the insurance company => everything is well checked before printing
9 hrs
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| agree |
writeaway
: I have no idea if you are right or wrong but I am sick of the serial disagrees
14 hrs
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Thanks!
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| agree |
Adrian MM.
: Some good Maghrebian mind-reading. The asker also ought, for the rest of the passage, to bone up on *average clauses* in insurance, as in comm. law courses https://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/traduction/règle pro...
2 days 9 hrs
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Thanks!
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-2
11 hrs
French term (edited):
en affectant cette somme du rapport qui existe entre le taux [A] et le <b>taux [B]
by correcting this amount with the proportion between the rate/ratio [A] and the rate/ratio [B]
... en affectant cette somme du rapport qui existe entre
=
... by correcting this amount with the proportion between
in effect / in practical terms:
... by multiplying this amount by the proportion between ...
that's for that part of the sentence;
what follows
... rapport qui existe entre
le taux moyen des montants excédentaires et
le taux des montants des insuffisances
indicates clearly that it's a proportion between two ratios, NOT between two amounts
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 6 hrs (2019-10-12 16:20:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Réversibilité:
S’il apparaît au jour du sinistre que des montants assurés sont surestimés, la somme des excédents constatée pourra être transformée en un montant réversible en affectant cette somme du rapport qui existe entre le taux moyen des montants excédentaires et le taux moyen des montants des insuffisances.
On entend par taux moyen des montants excédentaires (ou insuffisants) le rapport entre la somme de leur primes et la somme des montants assurés correspondants.
Ce montant réversible ainsi obtenu sera réparti entre toutes les rubriques sous-estimées, sinistrées ou non, en proportion de leur insuffisance. Cette réversibilité :
- n’est accordée que pour des biens appartenant au même ensemble et situés dans un même lieu, pour autant qu’ils ne fassent pas l’objet d’une assurance ajustable ;
- est limitée à 10% des montants assurés sur les biens sinistrés pour lesquels la réversibilité est accordée.
the question is about:
... rapport qui existe entre
le taux moyen des montants excédentaires et
le taux des montants des insuffisances
a numerical example:
after an insurance claim was made, it turns out that some risks have been overinsured, and some other underinsured.
say that:
some risks were overinsured by 30% (on average for that group = "le taux moyen des montants excédentaires ") - i.e. the real value of what was insured was overestimed by 30%
some other risks were inderinsured by say 60%. (on average for that group ="le taux des montants des insuffisances") - i.e. the real value of what was insured was underestimed by 60%
so of all the amount of what should be paid for the oversinsured risks, the amount that is above what would be paid for correctly insured risks (="les montants excédentaires ") is put in a separate pot, to cover as far as it is allowed " les montants des insuffisances" ) (definitely NOT all of them a priori).
But before anything is done with this money (="la somme des excédents constatée") this happens:
this amount of "la somme des excédents constatée" is turned into "un montant réversible" - the only amount that will be available for "réversion"- by using this calculation:
" en affectant cette somme du rapport qui existe entre le taux moyen des montants excédentaires et le taux moyen des montants des insuffisances."
en affectant cette somme du rapport ... entre le taux ... (excédentaires) et le le taux ... (des insuffisances).
in this numerical example this "rapport" would be
30% divided by 60% = 0.5
so in this example
la somme des excédents constatée * 0.5 = le montant réversible
IOW in this numerical example "le montant réversible" - the amount available for "réversion" would be ONLY half of "la somme des excédents constatée", i.e. ONLY 15% (30% * 0.5) of the total insured amounts that were overestimated (N_O_T 15% of "les montants excédentaires")
But then you get the next limitation that kicks in:
Cette réversibilité :
...
- est limitée à 10% des montants assurés sur les biens sinistrés pour lesquels la réversibilité est accordée.
so in the end however much is "le montant réversible" it has to be spread proportionally to ALL underinsured risks (="toutes les rubriques sous-estimées, sinistrées ou non"), and this transfer is also limited to 10% of the total underinsured amounts (so if some risks were underestimated by more than 10%, there is no way that "la réversion" will cover all of the "insuffisances".
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 19 hrs (2019-10-14 05:36:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
apropos the "average clause"
Definition of average clause
1: a clause in an insurance policy that restricts the amount payable to a sum not to exceed the value of the property destroyed and that bears the same proportion to the loss as the face of the policy does to the value of the property insured
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/average clause
that's ONLY the beginning of this calculation - that's why overinsured risks are not paid in full and the origin of "la somme des excédents constatée" - there are more steps after!
=
... by correcting this amount with the proportion between
in effect / in practical terms:
... by multiplying this amount by the proportion between ...
that's for that part of the sentence;
what follows
... rapport qui existe entre
le taux moyen des montants excédentaires et
le taux des montants des insuffisances
indicates clearly that it's a proportion between two ratios, NOT between two amounts
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 6 hrs (2019-10-12 16:20:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Réversibilité:
S’il apparaît au jour du sinistre que des montants assurés sont surestimés, la somme des excédents constatée pourra être transformée en un montant réversible en affectant cette somme du rapport qui existe entre le taux moyen des montants excédentaires et le taux moyen des montants des insuffisances.
On entend par taux moyen des montants excédentaires (ou insuffisants) le rapport entre la somme de leur primes et la somme des montants assurés correspondants.
Ce montant réversible ainsi obtenu sera réparti entre toutes les rubriques sous-estimées, sinistrées ou non, en proportion de leur insuffisance. Cette réversibilité :
- n’est accordée que pour des biens appartenant au même ensemble et situés dans un même lieu, pour autant qu’ils ne fassent pas l’objet d’une assurance ajustable ;
- est limitée à 10% des montants assurés sur les biens sinistrés pour lesquels la réversibilité est accordée.
the question is about:
... rapport qui existe entre
le taux moyen des montants excédentaires et
le taux des montants des insuffisances
a numerical example:
after an insurance claim was made, it turns out that some risks have been overinsured, and some other underinsured.
say that:
some risks were overinsured by 30% (on average for that group = "le taux moyen des montants excédentaires ") - i.e. the real value of what was insured was overestimed by 30%
some other risks were inderinsured by say 60%. (on average for that group ="le taux des montants des insuffisances") - i.e. the real value of what was insured was underestimed by 60%
so of all the amount of what should be paid for the oversinsured risks, the amount that is above what would be paid for correctly insured risks (="les montants excédentaires ") is put in a separate pot, to cover as far as it is allowed " les montants des insuffisances" ) (definitely NOT all of them a priori).
But before anything is done with this money (="la somme des excédents constatée") this happens:
this amount of "la somme des excédents constatée" is turned into "un montant réversible" - the only amount that will be available for "réversion"- by using this calculation:
" en affectant cette somme du rapport qui existe entre le taux moyen des montants excédentaires et le taux moyen des montants des insuffisances."
en affectant cette somme du rapport ... entre le taux ... (excédentaires) et le le taux ... (des insuffisances).
in this numerical example this "rapport" would be
30% divided by 60% = 0.5
so in this example
la somme des excédents constatée * 0.5 = le montant réversible
IOW in this numerical example "le montant réversible" - the amount available for "réversion" would be ONLY half of "la somme des excédents constatée", i.e. ONLY 15% (30% * 0.5) of the total insured amounts that were overestimated (N_O_T 15% of "les montants excédentaires")
But then you get the next limitation that kicks in:
Cette réversibilité :
...
- est limitée à 10% des montants assurés sur les biens sinistrés pour lesquels la réversibilité est accordée.
so in the end however much is "le montant réversible" it has to be spread proportionally to ALL underinsured risks (="toutes les rubriques sous-estimées, sinistrées ou non"), and this transfer is also limited to 10% of the total underinsured amounts (so if some risks were underestimated by more than 10%, there is no way that "la réversion" will cover all of the "insuffisances".
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 19 hrs (2019-10-14 05:36:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
apropos the "average clause"
Definition of average clause
1: a clause in an insurance policy that restricts the amount payable to a sum not to exceed the value of the property destroyed and that bears the same proportion to the loss as the face of the policy does to the value of the property insured
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/average clause
that's ONLY the beginning of this calculation - that's why overinsured risks are not paid in full and the origin of "la somme des excédents constatée" - there are more steps after!
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Sandra & Kenneth Grossman
: You are basically saying exactly the same thing "...the ratio between the average.. etc. "
8 hrs
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WOW!!!! The translation saying the same as the ST - isn't that how it's supposed to work? If you meant to say that this is the same thing as your attempt at translation - no, it's not the same - elementary maths say so.
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| neutral |
Adrian MM.
: if you know what an 'average clause' is in insurance, then spell it out instead of using ambiguous and unmathematical phrases like 'correcting with the proportion'.
1 day 23 hrs
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correcting "la somme des excédents constatée" [by multiplying it] with the proportion between etc - could be said that way, but it's obvious ... OTOH you could recheck what exactly is "a ratio/un taux" and what is "an amount/une somme/un montant" ...
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| disagree |
GILLES MEUNIER
: incompréhensible
2 days 9 hrs
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terribly sorry, but there are no ways to make this in "simple maths" ... no such thing as "maths for dummies", I'm afraid!
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Discussion
vs
a ratio = a dimensionless number - just a plain number
the "rapport" in this question is between two ratios, not two sums.
when money is involved, these "nuances" tend to count - quite a lot.
@Sandra& Kenneth
I extremely doubt that there is anything "missing" in the quoted fragment of the ST - these clauses stay more or less the same for years and decades (long enough to spot even the most minor mistakes) and there is too much at stake for the insurers to allow ANY error to slip into published terms.
Not to mention that your oversimplified "reinterpretation" contradicts the very good reference (https://www.argusdelassurance.com/reglementation/legislation... ) found by Ph_B
In fact your whole explanation doesn't hold any water - you are complety ignoring the difference between a ratio and an amount, and your interpretation of the meaning of the "10%" mentioned at the end is too unclear/ambiguous.
the part "the underinsured items will benefit of full insurance coverage" is just plain wrong - nothing in this clause to justify that assumption.
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affecter de = to modify by
du rapport qui existe entre = the coefficient