May 18, 2019 13:37
4 yrs ago
12 viewers *
French term
stipulations dérogatoires
French to English
Law/Patents
Law: Patents, Trademarks, Copyright
Les Spécifications du Logiciel élaborées par le Prestataire seront soumises à [...] qui disposera, à défaut de stipulations dérogatoires fixées dans le Bon de commande, d'un délai de cinq jours ouvrés pour les approuver en signant contradictoirement un procès-verbal de recette ou pour les refuser en faisant connaître par écrit ses observations.
Proposed translations
(English)
4 +5 | contrary provisions / stipulations | James Roden |
4 | derogations | Daryo |
4 -2 | opt-out provisions | Adrian MM. |
Proposed translations
+5
8 mins
Selected
contrary provisions / stipulations
E.g. in the absence of contrary provisions // provisions/stipulations to the contrary
However, it might be worth considering re-ordering the sentence to say something like
unless stated otherwise
unless otherwise stated
unless otherwise stipulated ...in the Purchase Order
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Note added at 8 mins (2019-05-18 13:46:02 GMT)
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https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:...
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Note added at 9 mins (2019-05-18 13:47:07 GMT)
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https://books.google.fr/books?id=BsS8xGbKahMC&pg=PA141&lpg=P...
However, it might be worth considering re-ordering the sentence to say something like
unless stated otherwise
unless otherwise stated
unless otherwise stipulated ...in the Purchase Order
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 mins (2019-05-18 13:46:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 mins (2019-05-18 13:47:07 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
https://books.google.fr/books?id=BsS8xGbKahMC&pg=PA141&lpg=P...
Example sentence:
In the absence of stipulation to the contrary, the sale, as explained in article 387, is presumed to be in cash
Unless otherwise stated, the assessment made in the Definitive Regulation remains valid.
Note from asker:
Thank you very much. |
Peer comment(s):
agree |
philgoddard
: I think "unless otherwise stated" is the most concise solution.
9 mins
|
agree |
Eliza Hall
: But I would not reword it. *Basic Principle*: Don't play around with legal contracts! The closest translation is "in the absence of contrary stipulations set forth in the Purchase Order." That works great, so there's no call to get creative.
3 hrs
|
neutral |
Daryo
: Not really wrong in the sense that the final effect is the same, but it ignores blissfully the key aspect of the term, i.e. that it's "an exception" to some general rule
4 hrs
|
A contr. stipul. to a position that would apply but for said c. s. is exactly what an exception is. The final effect, expressed AS USED in TL, is what is important. By your logic [salarié->employee] 'ignores' that they are paid a salary, yet is correct.
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|
agree |
Ph_B (X)
: and with Eliza as well: "in the absence of contrary stipulations set forth in the Purchase Order"
1 day 29 mins
|
agree |
Julie Barber
: works well in this particular context
1 day 18 hrs
|
agree |
AllegroTrans
2 days 19 hrs
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
-2
4 hrs
opt-out provisions
There is a subtle difference between a contrary provision or exception and an opt-out.
BTW, in my (limited) experience, the translation of opt-out works 9 times out of 10 for dérogation.
BTW, in my (limited) experience, the translation of opt-out works 9 times out of 10 for dérogation.
Example sentence:
opt-out clause n—clause de non-participation f · clause dérogatoire f · clause de renonciation f
Note from asker:
Thank you very much. |
Peer comment(s):
disagree |
Daryo
: and there is a not so subtle difference between an "opt-out" an agreed possibility and a definitely agreed exception to the general rule / No one can help you if don't start by making sure you know the exact meaning of terms used in the ST.
15 mins
|
I am afrad I cannot help you if you cannot tell the difference between an opt-out and an exception.
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disagree |
AllegroTrans
: They MAY amount to this but dangerous to assume as there is nothing explicit or even implicit in the source text
2 days 15 hrs
|
4 hrs
derogations
Notwithstanding the unfortunately similarly sounding "derogatory", there is an exact equivalent in EN: a derogation i.e. "an exception to the general rule".
"unless derogations have been agreed in the purpose order ...."
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Note added at 13 hrs (2019-05-19 02:42:44 GMT)
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there is here one sample where "derogations" are exceptions to some usual / general contractual conditions, NOT exceptions to some legislation:
The documents used by the Council of Europe depend on the strategic importance of the tenders to be awarded (eg: is the tender divided into several packages? are specific clauses – deadlines or penalties - necessary?) and/or their financial scale (eg: value of the tender).
They fall into one of two groups:
-Tenders < 25 000 EUR: order letters and any financial appendices, General Purchasing Conditions and/or service provision simplified
-Tenders > 25 000 EUR:
--Act of Engagement (AE): document in which the supplier commits their company for a fixed amount;
--General Conditions (CG): the General Purchasing Conditions of the Council of Europe, or for certain purchases, the General Conditions for Works; Supplies and Services; Intellectual Services; or IT Services, which override any other Sales Conditions of the Organisation's suppliers.
--Special Conditions (CS): document listing any derogations from the General Conditions;
--Technical specifications (ST): document conveying the Council of Europe's technical needs;
--Breakdown of the overall, all-inclusive price (DPGF): used to list the supplier's bids for all-inclusive needs;
--Schedule of unit prices (BPU): used to list the supplier's bids for needs broken down by unit;
--Tender rules (RC): non-contractual document providing suppliers with all the rules to be followed when replying to a call for tenders.
https://www.coe.int/en/web/portal/contracts
Given that this sample comes from an international organisation that certainly can afford a good legal department, it should be given some weight ...
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Note added at 13 hrs (2019-05-19 02:53:04 GMT)
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in this ST:
Les Spécifications du Logiciel élaborées par le Prestataire seront soumises à [...] qui disposera, à défaut de stipulations dérogatoires fixées dans le Bon de commande, d'un délai de cinq jours ouvrés pour les approuver en signant contradictoirement un procès-verbal de recette ou pour les refuser en faisant connaître par écrit ses observations.
the "derogation / exception to our general rule" here is that the client was allowed at the time of accepting the purchase order more than the usual/normal 5 working days to object to the quality of delivered software.
.... "unless derogations have been agreed in the purchase order ...."
"unless derogations have been agreed in the purpose order ...."
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 hrs (2019-05-19 02:42:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
there is here one sample where "derogations" are exceptions to some usual / general contractual conditions, NOT exceptions to some legislation:
The documents used by the Council of Europe depend on the strategic importance of the tenders to be awarded (eg: is the tender divided into several packages? are specific clauses – deadlines or penalties - necessary?) and/or their financial scale (eg: value of the tender).
They fall into one of two groups:
-Tenders < 25 000 EUR: order letters and any financial appendices, General Purchasing Conditions and/or service provision simplified
-Tenders > 25 000 EUR:
--Act of Engagement (AE): document in which the supplier commits their company for a fixed amount;
--General Conditions (CG): the General Purchasing Conditions of the Council of Europe, or for certain purchases, the General Conditions for Works; Supplies and Services; Intellectual Services; or IT Services, which override any other Sales Conditions of the Organisation's suppliers.
--Special Conditions (CS): document listing any derogations from the General Conditions;
--Technical specifications (ST): document conveying the Council of Europe's technical needs;
--Breakdown of the overall, all-inclusive price (DPGF): used to list the supplier's bids for all-inclusive needs;
--Schedule of unit prices (BPU): used to list the supplier's bids for needs broken down by unit;
--Tender rules (RC): non-contractual document providing suppliers with all the rules to be followed when replying to a call for tenders.
https://www.coe.int/en/web/portal/contracts
Given that this sample comes from an international organisation that certainly can afford a good legal department, it should be given some weight ...
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Note added at 13 hrs (2019-05-19 02:53:04 GMT)
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in this ST:
Les Spécifications du Logiciel élaborées par le Prestataire seront soumises à [...] qui disposera, à défaut de stipulations dérogatoires fixées dans le Bon de commande, d'un délai de cinq jours ouvrés pour les approuver en signant contradictoirement un procès-verbal de recette ou pour les refuser en faisant connaître par écrit ses observations.
the "derogation / exception to our general rule" here is that the client was allowed at the time of accepting the purchase order more than the usual/normal 5 working days to object to the quality of delivered software.
.... "unless derogations have been agreed in the purchase order ...."
Note from asker:
Thank you very much. |
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Adrian MM.
: derogations are to legislation, not to contracts or order forms//We do not know what these 'derogatory' stipulations - rather than straight derogations, say. So maybe it's better not to speculate.
36 mins
|
Well, blame then the ST ... because they are the ones talking of "derogations" to their general conditions for sale ... which may not be the most frequent usage for "dérogatoire" but I can't see that it would be wrong.
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neutral |
AllegroTrans
: English legalese GENERALLY reserves "derogations" to legislation. Use of the term in contracts would be Eurobabble and not really recommended
2 days 15 hrs
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Discussion
That would "translating by statistics", a method abandoned even by Machine Translation (well, the more advanced ones)
unless otherwise specified in the P.O. (47,200 ghits)