This site uses cookies. Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site, while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used. For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
Cookie settings
кардиорегистратор
продукция партнеров

Glossary entry

Russian term or phrase:

musical text vs музыкальный текст

English translation:

musical composition/melodic lines

Added to glossary by Frank Szmulowicz, Ph. D.
Jan 21, 2018 11:14
6 yrs ago
Russian term

musical text vs музыкальный текст

Russian to English Art/Literary Music
Is "musical text" a valid translation of the Russian collocation "музыкальный текст"?
Meaning exclusively a musical score written using musical notation, not a text written with letters like a libretto, lyrics, etc.
It seems (to me as to a non-native English speaker) that the word "text" means only a piece of writing with letters.

It's intended for translation of the phrase (into English):
"Симметрия поэтического и музыкального текстов в mélodie Prison Габриэля Форе"
->
"Symmetry of the poetic and musical texts in the mélodie Prison by Gabriel Fauré"

Here, as you see, the verbal and musical texts are meant to be distinctively different.
Proposed translations (English)
3 musical composition/melodic lines
3 +1 score
3 +1 musical aspect
4 music
4 -1 music(al) note (text) / music text
3 -1 lead sheet
Change log

Jan 28, 2018 22:30: Frank Szmulowicz, Ph. D. Created KOG entry

Discussion

Frank Szmulowicz, Ph. D. Jan 25, 2018:
Let us keep this in front of us as we ponder further the answer:
Gabriel Faure and Paul Verlaine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgswU64kw4A
I haven't fully investigated what some people mean by musical text, but here teh musical accompaniment/background/development faithfully mirrors/reflects/follows the poetry in the form of the song lyrics. The poetic and the melodic lines are mirror images of each other/mirror each other, e.g. exhibit symmetry.
Rus_Land (asker) Jan 24, 2018:
In the article i'm translating "symmetry" means a close text-music relationship, i.e. the music follows the text closely, repeating all its twists and turns and not owerpowering it. To each couplet of the poem corresponds a musical phrase, and to each syllable - a note. It's about a French melodie - Prison, by Gabriel Fore on verses by Verlaine.
May be it's too broad sense of symmetry :), but that's the way it's used here.
Frank Szmulowicz, Ph. D. Jan 24, 2018:
In view of usage found on the web,"musical text" is beginning to grow on me. I like "language" too. By the way, is this symmetry of poetry and music separately or the symmetry between them. What do you thiink of poetic and musical forms/construction/architecture? It invokes geometry and its symmetries.
Rus_Land (asker) Jan 24, 2018:
musical language I would like to ask about "musical language", too. Would it be valid "symmetry of poetic and musical languages"? I'd like to be a bit closer to the original, translations like "symmetry of lyrics and music" are Ok, they convey the meaning, may be when interpreting orally it would be great, but... The author could have said "симметричность поэтического и музыкального" in Russian, or "симметричность поэзии и музыки". But he used "texts", so I try to find the means to render it exactly, not in general, interpreting the meaning.
And translation like "poetic text ans musical composition", a bit... too large :)
Rus_Land (asker) Jan 24, 2018:
musical text So, back to my question :)
When I google "musical text" ("texts") it gives a lot of matches pointing to discussions/articles/books on, properly, musical texts :) the meaning matching closely the russian "музыкальный текст", i.e. a score, a piece of writing in musical notation. May be it's not so common in spoken language...
spanruss Jan 24, 2018:
I stand corrected
Frank Szmulowicz, Ph. D. Jan 24, 2018:
A lovely video. Definition:
In music, texture is how the tempo, melodic, and harmonic materials are combined in a composition, thus determining the overall quality of the sound in a piece.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texture_(music)
Rus_Land (asker) Jan 24, 2018:
@spanruss: When I google "musical texture" it gives over 80 000 matches (and over 18 000 in Books), so it seems as if this collocation made a perfect sense in music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoLWvT1iMoA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texture_(music)

But, yes, here I agree with you and Frank that it does not correspond exactly to the "text" in a piece of writing...
Frank Szmulowicz, Ph. D. Jan 23, 2018:
@Rus_Land: Musical texture has a different nuance then text. The sentence speaks of the symmetry of music and lyrics, not the symmetry between the music and the lyrics. One can say, musical develoment, melodic development, melodic lines (a text of sorts). musical theme. melodic train, ....
spanruss Jan 23, 2018:
Although "text" has the same first four letters as "texture", the two do not share a common root, and have no relationship or similarity whatsoever. Also, as a semi-professional musician and composer, I've personally never heard "texture" used to describe a piece of music.
Rus_Land (asker) Jan 23, 2018:
musical texture Does it sound OK to a native English speaker "Symmetry of the poetic text and the musical texture in..."?
I would like to keep "text" in some way :)

Proposed translations

1 hr
Selected

musical composition/melodic lines

The symmetry of the poetic text and the musical composition in Gabriel Faure's melodie "Prison"....

Musical composition can refer to an original piece of music, either a song or an instrumental music piece, the structure of a musical piece, or the process of creating or writing a new song or piece of music.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_composition


cccccccccccccccccccccccccc
The symmetry of the poetic text and the melodic lines...

melodic line
a succession of notes forming a distinctive sequence
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/melodic line
cccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc

Note from asker:
Your variant is the closest, but I woul like to keep "text" in some way :). Is "musical textture" suitable for this context? How does it sound to a native English speaker? "symmetry of the poetic text and the musical texture"?
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Wery useful answer and - especially! - the following discussion and commentaries. Thank you, Frank!"
+1
25 mins

score

I agree that musical text does not cover the Russian phrase accurately. Score is the obvious translation but won't fit in the sentence. My suggestion for the whole sentence to get around the problem is:
"Poetic symmetry of words and music in the mélodie Prison by Gabriel Fauré"
Note from asker:
"symmetry of words and music" would be a good translation, but in this context it doesn't work, because the symmetry. in fact, is at the level of syllables, not words. Likewise, "score" doesn't work in this context, in my opinion, because it's only printed "stuff", signs on a sheet of paper, and it's evidently not symmetric to the letters of the poem. It seems that the only way is "symmetry of the poetic text and the music", or "the musical composition", as Frank Szmulowicz suggests.
Peer comment(s):
agree The Misha : There are actally two standard terms for this that are universally understood: score and lyrics. Why reinvent the bycicle?
37 mins
agree Jack Doughty
41 mins
disagree spanruss : The "score" is the totality of a piece of written music. Seems like here they are referring to two individual aspects of a piece of music.
5 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
5 hrs

musical aspect

To me, this seems to be a comparison between the "poetic and musical aspects" of the piece itself.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2018-01-21 16:59:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Or some synonym of aspect, e.g., quality, nature, etc.
Note from asker:
Yes, you can interpret it this way. I liked your interpretation, really :) But my question was whether "musical text" (literally), as a word for word translation of "музыкальный текст", is a valid collocation or not. It seems that it is (I found it googling different "musical texts" :)), and it means a piece of writing in musical notation. What is perfect for me!
Peer comment(s):
agree Samantha Payn
1 day 19 hrs
Something went wrong...
-1
9 hrs

lead sheet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_sheet
to show many musical elements
ноты music, printed music; (непереплетенные) sheet music играть без нот — to play without music играть по нотам — to read music, to play from music
Peer comment(s):
disagree Samantha Payn : "lead sheet" is a term used in many forms of "popular" music (jazz, blues, rock etc) but is not at all appropriate for this context of Faure's work.
1 day 15 hrs
Something went wrong...
-1
19 mins

music(al) note (text) / music text

music(al) note (text) / music text

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 mins (2018-01-21 11:35:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

OR Just "notation"
that works

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 mins (2018-01-21 11:35:33 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Or "musical notation"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 hrs (2018-01-22 04:47:39 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

https://fsymbols.com/computer/music-note/
Music note texts or music notes texts

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 hrs (2018-01-22 04:48:16 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

or Music symbols texts

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 hrs (2018-01-22 05:08:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Or musical notes text
Note from asker:
"music text" does not exist. Just google it :) But "musical text" seems a valid collocation
Peer comment(s):
disagree The Misha : This is not how it is said in English. A note refers to a single sound or its graphic representation. What "music text" is, I have no idea.
47 mins
Yes, you are right.
Something went wrong...
1 day 3 hrs

music

"Symmetry of the lyrics and music in the mélodie Prison by Gabriel Fauré\"
Note from asker:
It seems that the word "lyrics" isn't used for the texts of the ART songs of the 19th century (like melodie genre) that were written on verses of many celebrated poets. May be it's more appropriate for popular songs or folk songs of our time.
Peer comment(s):
neutral spanruss : Possibly. If the composer mirrors the actual meaning of the lyrics through music, e.g., a mention of a train is followed by a whistle, etc., then I would agree. Perhaps someone familiar with this piece of music could further clarify.
1 day 9 hrs
Something went wrong...
Close search
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search