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Glossary entry

English term or phrase:

loft (attic) room

French translation:

chambre sous combles / mansardée

Added to glossary by Tony M
Apr 13, 2017 13:53
7 yrs ago
English term

loft rooms

Non-PRO English to French Other Tourism & Travel
The apartment is large and with lots of sunlight. It has 5 small balconies and one terrace. There are 3 rooms, a small, middle and a large. In addition, there is two loft rooms under the roof with half height, furnished with beds.
Proposed translations (French)
4 +2 chambre sous combles / mansardée
4 Mezzanine
4 -1 loft
References
asked as part of a test around a week ago
Change log

Apr 13, 2017 15:36: Tony M changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"

Apr 18, 2017 09:35: Tony M changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/1443464">Thierry Darlis's</a> old entry - "loft rooms "" to ""chambre sous combles / mansardée""

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (3): writeaway, Hélène OShea, Tony M

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Discussion

Tony M Apr 20, 2017:
@ Hélène Thanks a lot! Yes, it's amazing how having proper context suddenly makes everything crystal clear, isn't it?
Hélène OShea Apr 20, 2017:
@Tony, nice one! went to look at the link and it makes perfect sense.
Tony M Apr 14, 2017:
@ Hélène Yes, all that is of course vitale extra context that Asker should have provided; however, it was very easy to find via Google, so we know that it is 'Duplex' after a fashion, and the photos are quite clear as to what it is or is not.
As usual, if we go and take the trouble to find the context Asker has not bothered to provide, all the answers become clear.
Hélène OShea Apr 14, 2017:
Tony, having done the test I know for a fact that the apartment is on the 5th floor so is it duplex or not we don't know but with the flawed English and the lack of info, honestly we can only give an approximate translation so deux chambres sous les toits should do the job. I took mezzanine literally here as in half ( the room, the space). A lot of trouble for not a very well paid job anyway :)
Tony M Apr 14, 2017:
@ Hélène (2) Bear in mind that a literally half-height room isn't possible; for one thing, it's against building regs, and for another, you wouldn't be able to move around in it! So it is more than likely they really meant 'reduced-height', or, as is often the case, a sloping ceiling such that part of the room has a lower-than-normal ceiling — which is consistent with the use of 'loft'.
While they might have been trying to suggest that just these 2 rooms are 'in the style of' a 'loft apartment' (which tend to be 'lofty'!), that then seems inconsistent with the low ceiling height.
Tony M Apr 14, 2017:
@ Hélène Not really! It seems to me the main 3 rooms mentioned are probably on the ground floor, and these two bedrooms are in the roof-space. There is nothing in the source text given to indicate this would be in the form of an open-plan mezzanine space. I do not see the logic in your remark "if we're talking of a non duplex apartment (the other 3 rooms are not said to be under the roof), these loft rooms can only be 'en mezzanine'. We don't KNOW for sure this isn't a duplex apartment; in fact, for it to have attic bedrooms, it's quite likely to be so; but the mere fact they are under the roof doesn't make them a 'mezzanine'. But you can also have an apartment all on one floor where just some of the rooms are in the roofspace.
Neither does 'half-height' necesarily imply 'mezzanine' — a mezzanine may well have a sloping ceiling (which is what I feel is implied by 'loft' here), and it is not impossible also that it might have a low ceiling; but that doesn't make all attic rooms a mezzanine.
Hélène OShea Apr 14, 2017:
Tony, I think that when I say that the English is flawed on purpose, they are in fact giving us a text as written by a non-native speaker describing apartment rentals and surroundings to see if we can manage with it. I think the 'half height' here is calling for mezzanine. 'Chambres sous combles/les toits en mezzanine' covers it I think. These loft rooms are in addition to the other 3 rooms so if we're talking of a non duplex apartment (the other 3 rooms are not said to be under the roof), these loft rooms can only be 'en mezzanine'. Does that make sense?
Tony M Apr 14, 2017:
@ Hélène 'mezzanine' is a mis-translation of 'loft room', and if French sites are using it, they are making a mistake! As can be seen in that reference kindly quoted by Chakib.
By its very definition, in FR and EN, alike 'mezzanine' implies an open space in some way overlooking another space; whereas 'loft room' definitely implies an enclosed room space.
Now of course it may happen that an open-plan mezzanine area happens to have a sloping ceiling because it is up under the roof — indeed, this ia a very common situation; BUT that fact of being under the roof and having a sloping ceiling does NOT make it a 'room'.
In this particular instance, the likelihood of its being any kind of 'mezzanine' seems to me more unlikely still because there are 2 of them — by their very open-plan nature, it is common to have only one mezzanine (though of course, depending on the layout of the house, there's nothing to say there can't be more than one).
If the text has been deliberately falsified as Hélène suggests, then it is not up to us on KudoZ to correct it on the supposition of what it MIGHT have meant; it is fortunate that Hélène noticed this and was not fooled by it!

Proposed translations

+2
1 hr
English term (edited): loft room
Selected

chambre sous combles / mansardée

You really should have done a term search before posting, as this came up just the other day, and the exact-same term is already in the glossary!

W/A has very kindly provided the link to that earlier question, where you can follow the extensive discussion.

Do beware of the possibly flawed quality of the EN in your source text, which may have a bearing on other terms in your document.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 heure (2017-04-13 15:41:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Note that in the hotel trade, in EN we often talk about 'rooms', where '(bed)rooms' is taken as understood; this certainly seems to be the case here, as we know they have beds in them.

It sounds as if the other 3 'rooms' are also probably mis-named 'bedrooms', but in this instance we don't have the information needed to be certain.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 heures (2017-04-14 12:22:18 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

OK! So here's the actual property in question — in Denmark, which explains the poor EN:

https://www.airbnb.fr/rooms/443684

It's a penthouse apartment, with nary a mezzanine in sight, and the two smaller bedrooms are completely situated under the apex of the roof — i.e. unlike the other rooms, they do not have any portion of flat ceiling at all; I imagine they are in fact literally situated above the other rooms. You can see in the view outside of the pretty high roof, in one place there is a second row of Velux windows above the first, which could well be the same sort of layout as the apartment in question.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 jour10 heures (2017-04-14 23:56:33 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Once we have the exact context, complete with photos, all become clear; I think perhaps 'chambre mansardée' is the better solution here, since that is the key point of the property description.
Peer comment(s):
agree B D Finch
15 hrs
Thanks, B! :-)
agree Annie Rigler
18 hrs
Merci, Annie !
neutral Hélène OShea : I have taken this test as well and I reckon the English was flawed on purpose to test the translation and adaptation skills of the applicants
19 hrs
That's an interesting insight, Hélène! However, in KudoZ we can only deal with the text as presented.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
-1
33 mins

loft

In french Canadian we just say "loft"
Peer comment(s):
disagree Tony M : That would apply if this was a 'loft apartment' — but that is clearly not the case, as we are talking about just 2 specific rooms within the apartment as a whole.
1 hr
Something went wrong...
3 mins

Mezzanine

http://lesmezzanines.klimtouw.nl/

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 43 mins (2017-04-13 14:36:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

We can also say:chambres grenier
https://fr.pinterest.com/explore/chambre-grenier/
Reference:

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mezzanine_(architecture)

Peer comment(s):
agree Geraldine Njonkou : ou chambre-mezzanine. http://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2alpha/alpha-fra.html?la...
51 mins
Merci GeraldineN
disagree Tony M : Unlikely — in EN (and FR too, AFAIK), 'mezzanine' implies an open area overlooking some other space; yet here, since we now have the exact context, we know this is not the case.
1 hr
Dear Tony, have you at least checked my refs?
disagree B D Finch : "Mezzanine" means exactly the same in French as it does in English, i.e. between floors. Your Dutch mezzanines are real ones: i.e. oversailing the floor. The Termium Plus entry is just a (wrong) suggestion from an individual translator.
17 hrs
Thank you.
agree Hélène OShea : the French real estate websites actually use mezzanines to translate loft rooms, I found many entries
21 hrs
Thank you.
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

7 mins
Reference:

asked as part of a test around a week ago

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_french/tourism_travel/6...

English to French translations [Non-PRO]
Marketing - Tourism & Travel / Website
English term or phrase: loft room
there is two loft rooms under the roof with half height, furnished with beds.
Special characteristics of this term posting:
- This term was taken from homework or a test assignment
Marina Diaponon
Cote D'ivoire

Local time: 13:59
(2 hrs behind you)
Flag or filter this asker: dashboard
chambre sous combles
Explanation:
Puisqu'on sait qu'il y a des lits... ou sinon, juste 'pièce'

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 heures (2017-04-05 07:06:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In EN, in the hotel trade in particular, we often say simply 'room' when 'bedroom' is understood — 'a 22-room hotel', for example — whereas in FR we always call them a 'chambre' when that's what they are; and here we are told that they have beds in them!

Selected response from:

Tony M
France
Local time: 15:59
(the same as you)
Grading comment
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +3 pièces mansardées/mansardes
Dominique Brunel

3 +2 chambre sous combles
Tony M

Summary of reference entries provided
B D Finch


Discussion entries: 4

Post discussion entry Show discussion



Answer Post reference Edit Reverse pair Vote PRO

Answers

7 hrs confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +3
pièces mansardées/mansardes


Explanation:
...

Dominique Brunel
France
Local time: 15:59
(the same as you)
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench
Track this answerer


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree Tony M: Though I would tend to say 'chambre' — in EN, in the hotel trade in particular, we often say simply 'room' when 'bedroom' is understood — 'a 22-room hotel', for example — whereas in FR we always call them a 'chambre' when that's what they are.
3 mins
-> Mais on ne sait pas s'il s'agit de chambres. Il n'y a pas de contexte, donc le mot 'pièces' m'a semblé plus approprié, de même que 'mansardes'.
agree FX Fraipont
1 hr
neutral B D Finch: Chambres parce que "furnished with beds" et on ne sait pas si le toit est mansardé ou non.
13 hrs
agree writeaway Click here to delete your comment Click here to edit your comment
1 day8 hrs

7 hrs confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
chambre sous combles


Explanation:
Puisqu'on sait qu'il y a des lits... ou sinon, juste 'pièce'

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 heures (2017-04-05 07:06:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In EN, in the hotel trade in particular, we often say simply 'room' when 'bedroom' is understood — 'a 22-room hotel', for example — whereas in FR we always call them a 'chambre' when that's what they are; and here we are told that they have beds in them!

Tony M
France
Local time: 15:59
(the same as you)
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 89
Track this answerer


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree FX Fraipont
1 hr
-> Merci, F-X !
agree B D Finch
13 hrs
-> Thanks, B! :-)

255

Post Send me the response




Reference comments

20 hrs peer agreement (net): +1
Reference

Reference information:
"The terms 'loft' and 'attic' are often used interchangeably to describe a large void under, or partly under a roof, but above the main occupied spaces, that it is possible to access.

"However, some definitions suggest that the term ‘attic’ refers to the entire storey of a building under the roof, whereas the term ‘loft’ refers to one or more rooms or spaces under the roof, but not the entire storey.

"According to the government, the difference between a loft room and an attic room is:

"A loft room is accessed by a fixed staircase and has the whole loft area converted to a living space including the sloped eaves if the property has a pitched roof.
"An attic room is accessed by a fixed staircase and has the eaves area of the loft squared off to create a box room in the centre.

"Ref http://www.government-grants.co.uk/room-in-roof-insulation-g...



"Attic
"... A space or room inside or partly inside the roof of a building.
‘I discovered a dozen rolls of the original wallpaper in a tin trunk in the attic’
as modifier ‘there are five attic bedrooms’"

"Loft
"... A room or space directly under the roof of a house or other building, used for accommodation or storage.
‘the best way to prevent this heat loss is by insulating the loft’
as modifier ‘loft conversions’"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 hrs (2017-04-05 19:14:34 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Also see: http://www.abcselfstore.co.uk/storage-blog/2013/11/attics-lo...


https://www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/Loft_v_attic
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com
B D Finch
France
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 8
Track this answerer


Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
agree Tony M
27 mins
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Tony M : Obviously someone else won the job ;-)
1 hr
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