Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
tenir des propos mondains
English translation:
To be conversational / to bander small-talk
Added to glossary by
Francis Marche
Sep 28, 2015 07:44
8 yrs ago
2 viewers *
French term
Fast and Accurate
Native in: English
Works in: Russian to English, French to English, Italian to English, and 1 more.
mondain
French to English
Other
Poetry & Literature
From an academic text on Proust:
Ainsi malgré le caractère ***mondain*** de son propos, le narrateur proustien n’avait-il pas totalement tort de craindre le hay-fever ou la rose-fever tant l’odeur de rose imprègne la partition de Pelléas et Mélisande.
Derrière le propos ***mondain***, destiné à flatter le goût du modernisme de la snob Madame de Cambremer, le narrateur...
Both sentences refer to the following passage:
"Je me tournai vers la belle-fille: «C’est tout à fait Pelléas, lui dis-je, pour contenter son goût de modernisme, cette odeur de roses montant jusqu’aux terrasses. Elle est si forte, dans la partition, que, comme j’ai le hay-fever et la rose-fever, elle me faisait éternuer chaque fois que j’entendais cette scène.»
Ainsi malgré le caractère ***mondain*** de son propos, le narrateur proustien n’avait-il pas totalement tort de craindre le hay-fever ou la rose-fever tant l’odeur de rose imprègne la partition de Pelléas et Mélisande.
Derrière le propos ***mondain***, destiné à flatter le goût du modernisme de la snob Madame de Cambremer, le narrateur...
Both sentences refer to the following passage:
"Je me tournai vers la belle-fille: «C’est tout à fait Pelléas, lui dis-je, pour contenter son goût de modernisme, cette odeur de roses montant jusqu’aux terrasses. Elle est si forte, dans la partition, que, comme j’ai le hay-fever et la rose-fever, elle me faisait éternuer chaque fois que j’entendais cette scène.»
Proposed translations
(English)
Change log
Oct 8, 2015 16:11: Francis Marche Created KOG entry
Proposed translations
-1
29 mins
Francis Marche
France
France
Native in French
&
English
France
36 years experience on 4 continents
Native in: French 
, English
Works in: English to French, French to English
Related KudoZ points
:
7
Selected
trivial / small-talk
Possibly "small-talkish". But not "mundane" (secular/worldly) in this context.
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Note added at 12 hrs (2015-09-28 20:35:22 GMT)
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"Mondain" here has few connections with "urbanity" and still less with trendiness or fashion, but it closely connected to the French idiom "se perdre en mondanités". Google this idiom and capture its meaning : to waste one's time in small talk.
"Echanger des mondanités" is another case : to banter small talk.
See this : "The service is just incredible--the folks at the register never fail to greet you, to smile, to banter small talk" (in a restaurant)
and this, in a French work of fiction : "Il aurait dû rester au Rosebud à échanger des mondanités mais non, il avait commis l'erreur de rentrer à la maison où il avait découvert sa fille en pleine crise"
"Mondain" is the adjective for "mondanités" and it has nothing to do with "mode" whasoever.
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Note added at 13 hrs (2015-09-28 20:50:45 GMT)
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http://forum.wordreference.com/threads/échanger-des-mondanit...
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Note added at 1 day4 hrs (2015-09-29 12:10:23 GMT)
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To those who believe there is a discrimination to be made between "social sophistication" and "gossip" (small talk), please watch this youtube video -- and interview of Paul Morand and his wife on their memories of the socialite Proust, spending his nights at the Ritz in Paris, etc.. Go straight to minute 35 and listen : "il adorait les potins" (gossips), etc. Small talk and mondanités and the fact of being "mondain" was one same thing for Proust. "Etre mondain" IS being gossippy or small-talkish. For Proust it was a way to access history or so Morand says.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s60bNcVr4IE
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Note added at 1 day6 hrs (2015-09-29 14:42:53 GMT)
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Well Charles Davis, I cannot reply to your latest response for want of field space, but I suppose you knew Proust better than Paul Morand who met him twice a week at the Ritz, n'est-ce pas ?
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Note added at 1 day7 hrs (2015-09-29 14:46:03 GMT)
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[...better than did Paul Morand...]
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 12 hrs (2015-09-28 20:35:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
"Mondain" here has few connections with "urbanity" and still less with trendiness or fashion, but it closely connected to the French idiom "se perdre en mondanités". Google this idiom and capture its meaning : to waste one's time in small talk.
"Echanger des mondanités" is another case : to banter small talk.
See this : "The service is just incredible--the folks at the register never fail to greet you, to smile, to banter small talk" (in a restaurant)
and this, in a French work of fiction : "Il aurait dû rester au Rosebud à échanger des mondanités mais non, il avait commis l'erreur de rentrer à la maison où il avait découvert sa fille en pleine crise"
"Mondain" is the adjective for "mondanités" and it has nothing to do with "mode" whasoever.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 hrs (2015-09-28 20:50:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
http://forum.wordreference.com/threads/échanger-des-mondanit...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day4 hrs (2015-09-29 12:10:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
To those who believe there is a discrimination to be made between "social sophistication" and "gossip" (small talk), please watch this youtube video -- and interview of Paul Morand and his wife on their memories of the socialite Proust, spending his nights at the Ritz in Paris, etc.. Go straight to minute 35 and listen : "il adorait les potins" (gossips), etc. Small talk and mondanités and the fact of being "mondain" was one same thing for Proust. "Etre mondain" IS being gossippy or small-talkish. For Proust it was a way to access history or so Morand says.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s60bNcVr4IE
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day6 hrs (2015-09-29 14:42:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Well Charles Davis, I cannot reply to your latest response for want of field space, but I suppose you knew Proust better than Paul Morand who met him twice a week at the Ritz, n'est-ce pas ?
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day7 hrs (2015-09-29 14:46:03 GMT)
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[...better than did Paul Morand...]
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Yvonne Gallagher
: This does not work at all in the given context. And "small-talkish" is not English! Also, your 1st line says it doesn't mean "worldly" but you're not disagreeing with that?
13 hrs
|
| neutral |
Charles Davis
: Mondanités can be small talk but also "événements de la vie mondaine", and "mondain" can mean "qui adopte les usages en vigueur dans la société des gens en vue". This is social sophistication, not gossip // I can't agree with that comment on Proust.
1 day 29 mins
|
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Right. The problem you see is that in Proust's saga "social sophistication" and "gossip" are strictly the same thing, l'un ne va pas sans l'autre et ils sont interchangeables. To discriminate them like you do is a mistake or at least a misinterpretation.
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3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you, Francis, for putting me on the right track. I also got the sense that he was just making small talk to be polite (because that's what you do when you're a member of high society). In the end, I needed an adjective, and "small-talkish" felt a bit awkward, and "gossipy" wasn't quite right, so I came up with "conversational.""
21 mins
Chakib Roula
Algeria
Algeria
Native in French
Works in field
Algeria
Shedding light out of words
Native in: Arabic , French
Works in: Arabic to French, Arabic to English, French to English, and 3 more.
Sociable/Social
Suggestion
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
B D Finch
: Even a wrong suggestion (as this is) would be better with some explanation! See also KudoZ rules.
2 hrs
|
+6
2 hrs
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Native in English
Psychologist, Court-certified legal
Native in: English 
Works in: French to English
Related KudoZ points
:
16
worldly-wise
This is a rather tongue-in-cheek reference to the false note struck by the use of English in French phrase. The person speaking is seeking to appear sophisticated and cultivated.
Francis' suggestion of trivial/small-talk might also work, but I think it might be an understranslation here. There are a number of clues ("destiné à flatter", "pour contenter son goût de modernisme") that the person intends to pass off as something she is not, using affected vocbulary.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2015-09-28 10:21:08 GMT)
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http://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/mondain_mondai...
Qui adopte les manières en usage dans la société des gens en vue ; qui sort beaucoup dans ce milieu, qui aime les mondanités : C'est un mondain.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english-thesaur...
Lisa was sufficiently worldly-wise to understand the situation
sophisticated, experienced, worldly, knowledgeable, knowing, aware, enlightened, shrewd, astute, perceptive, mature, seasoned, cosmopolitan, urbane, cultivated, cultured, unprovincial
informal having been around
[ANTONYMS] naive, unsophisticated
Francis' suggestion of trivial/small-talk might also work, but I think it might be an understranslation here. There are a number of clues ("destiné à flatter", "pour contenter son goût de modernisme") that the person intends to pass off as something she is not, using affected vocbulary.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2015-09-28 10:21:08 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/mondain_mondai...
Qui adopte les manières en usage dans la société des gens en vue ; qui sort beaucoup dans ce milieu, qui aime les mondanités : C'est un mondain.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english-thesaur...
Lisa was sufficiently worldly-wise to understand the situation
sophisticated, experienced, worldly, knowledgeable, knowing, aware, enlightened, shrewd, astute, perceptive, mature, seasoned, cosmopolitan, urbane, cultivated, cultured, unprovincial
informal having been around
[ANTONYMS] naive, unsophisticated
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
B D Finch
37 mins
|
| agree |
Helen Shiner
: Or maybe just 'worldly'.
41 mins
|
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I agree. "Worldy" is better.
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| agree |
Charles Davis
: If not precisely this then something very similar. I read it as modish and urbane. I think it's referring mainly to the fact that Pelléas (premiered in 1902) was all the rage with the Parisian smart set.
1 hr
|
| agree |
Simon Mac
1 hr
|
| neutral |
Yvonne Gallagher
: I don't really see how "worldly-wise " would fit with "destiné à flatter le goût du modernisme de la snob..."??//"worldly" doesn't work either for 2nd sentence and not really for 1st either imo
1 hr
|
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"Worldly" alone is probably a better fit here. In context, there is probably no obligation to use a one-size-fits-all solution.
|
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| agree |
Verginia Ophof
2 hrs
|
| agree |
erwan-l
: 'Wordly' alone.
14 hrs
|
+1
4 hrs
Yvonne Gallagher
Ireland
Ireland
Native in English
Specializes in field
Ireland
right word, right place. everytime
Native in: English (Variants: US, Canadian, Irish, UK)
Works in: French to English, Spanish to English, English, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
40
on-trend/fashionable
another suggestion that might work in context
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Note added at 4 hrs (2015-09-28 11:48:05 GMT)
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I also think "modish" suggested by Charles might work here
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Note added at 4 hrs (2015-09-28 11:49:48 GMT)
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this is all socialite parlance...everyone wanting to (appear to) be on trend and modern
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Note added at 4 hrs (2015-09-28 12:10:00 GMT)
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other possibilities use the French "dernier cri" or just "in"
I considered "hip"as well but feel it doesn't suit register.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2015-09-28 11:48:05 GMT)
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I also think "modish" suggested by Charles might work here
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2015-09-28 11:49:48 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
this is all socialite parlance...everyone wanting to (appear to) be on trend and modern
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2015-09-28 12:10:00 GMT)
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other possibilities use the French "dernier cri" or just "in"
I considered "hip"as well but feel it doesn't suit register.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Charles Davis
: Yes, this is the idea. I couldn't find a word for it that completely satisfied me.
17 mins
|
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Thanks, yes, this doesn't completely satisfy me either., maybe "in vogue" or "chi-chi"?
|
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| agree |
Lisa Jane
: I was thinking of 'socialite' myself-yes in fact if an adjective for socialite existed it would fit perfectly
57 mins
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Thanks:-) Yes, they are socialites but an adj. is needed here
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| neutral |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: "Fashionable" would be more appropriate than "on-trend" for the turn of the 20th century context. We don't read this the same way tho' as "fashionable" does not convey (IMO) the attempt to appear more cultivated with artifical social device described.
4 hrs
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well the book is turn-of-century but I think the critical work isn't so the language doesn't have to be antiquated. And this is about the "propos" of the narrator not about Madame
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| disagree |
Francis Marche
: I'm afraid no. "Mondain" has nothing to do with "mode" or "dernier cri du chic parisien". See my notes.
8 hrs
|
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I have to disagree. and BTW it's "dernier cri"
|
4 hrs
Sophie Cherel
Spain
Spain
Native in English
Specializes in field
Spain
Clarity, accuracy and speed
Native in: English
Works in: French to English, Spanish to English
Related KudoZ points
:
4
less than poetic
I think in this sense 'mondain' means that the narrator has ulterior (wordly) motives in talking this way.
You could translate it a bit like this; '...despite the fact that his intentions were less than poetic, the proustian narrator 's words betray real sensitivity, since the Pelleas and Melisande score is indeed so imbued with the smell of roses as to provoke hay-fever or rose-fever.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2015-09-28 12:11:06 GMT)
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Sorry, better written as one of these two options, according to the tone determined by the wider context:
(a) Serious: 'So, although his intentions are clearly less than poetic, the proustian narrator is not altogether wrong, since the Pelleas and Mélisand music score does, indeed, exude such a strong smell of roses as to induce an attack of hay-fever or rose-fever.'
(b) Comical: 'So, although his intentions are clearly far from poetic, the proustian narrator is right to fear an attack of hay-fever or rose-fever since the (music score) really does reek of roses.
You could translate it a bit like this; '...despite the fact that his intentions were less than poetic, the proustian narrator 's words betray real sensitivity, since the Pelleas and Melisande score is indeed so imbued with the smell of roses as to provoke hay-fever or rose-fever.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2015-09-28 12:11:06 GMT)
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Sorry, better written as one of these two options, according to the tone determined by the wider context:
(a) Serious: 'So, although his intentions are clearly less than poetic, the proustian narrator is not altogether wrong, since the Pelleas and Mélisand music score does, indeed, exude such a strong smell of roses as to induce an attack of hay-fever or rose-fever.'
(b) Comical: 'So, although his intentions are clearly far from poetic, the proustian narrator is right to fear an attack of hay-fever or rose-fever since the (music score) really does reek of roses.
17 hrs
mundane
Along the lines of less than poetic... mundane is also a synonym for 'wordly' which is the easiest literal translation.
Mondain is also related to the trivial, superficial, and one could even go as far as saying 'unremarkable'
Mondain is also related to the trivial, superficial, and one could even go as far as saying 'unremarkable'
Discussion
On vient d'arroser les fleurs au bord de la terrasse
et l'odeur de la verdure et des roses mouillées monte jusqu'ici."
As usual, Debussy's libretto follows Maeterlinck's play virtually verbatim; in the latter it is: "Tiens ! on vient d'arroser les fleurs au pied de la terrasse, et l'odeur de la verdure et des roses mouillées s'élève jusqu'à nous".
Debussy's wonderful opera, premiered at the Opéra-Comique in 1902, was very popular with the younger "modern" set in Paris. It was, as it were, an emblem of modernity (rejected by traditionalists like Saint-Saëns), and was in vogue up to the First World War. I think that's what this is about.