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gyrophare en tête de flèche.
secteur

Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

tout venant

English translation:

general waste

Added to glossary by Wendy Cummings
Jul 23, 2012 11:42
11 yrs ago
27 viewers *
French term

tout venant

French to English Tech/Engineering Environment & Ecology waste disposal
Yes I know this has been asked a few times before, but none of the answers seem to fit for me. The document is about eco-labelling for medical beds, and the particular section is about the percentage of the end-of-life bed that can be dismantled and recycled. The phrase in question is:

1.8 % de la masse du lit destinée au tout-venant, soit 2,64 kg.

It has already been established earlier in the document that:

1.7 % de la masse du lit non démontable, soit 2,45 kg

And I feel these two figures are not just coincidentally similar.

Sitreva gives the following as a definition for "tout venant" as a type of waste:

Ces déchets sont constitués de gros mobiliers, de matelas, de chutes de moquette, de plaques de placo-pâtre, …. Ils subissent un tri mécanique permettant d’extraire une part valorisable (métaux, petits matériaux incinérables, cartons, …). La fraction ultime, environ 60%, est évacuée vers une installation de stockage de déchets ménagers non dangereux.

I am currently playing around with a very vague translation, along the lines of "1.8% of the bed by weight goes to generic [land-fill]" but I need to make sure I'm not over-simplifying the situation.

Thanks in advance.
Proposed translations (English)
3 +4 general waste
4 +1 bulk waste (see definition in French)
3 +2 other waste
4 mixed
4 materials recovery
3 scrap
References
Tout venant par élimination

Discussion

Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jul 27, 2012:
@ Matt Precisely. Your references and explanations are in fact relevant for "bulky" not "bulk" so I have a problem with the use of "bulk" if it is to mean "bulky". "Bulk waste" may work, but "bulk waste" is not necessarily synonymous with "bulky waste". There is lack of coherence in the terms used and the explanations provided.
MatthewLaSon Jul 26, 2012:
@ Nikki But "bulk waste" in English doesn't necessarily mean that all items are heavy or voluminous. It has a much more "general" meaning than its name implies. It's also that the objects are bit more awkward to handle to include lighter objects such as grass clippings, twigs, branches, etc. Again, not all definitions of "bulk waste" say the items have to be big and voluminous. This is in line with how "le tout-venant" is understood, too, imho.

Be it known that I am not sure sure of anything.
Carlos Segura Jul 26, 2012:
Please see this page http://www.letswasteless.com/cms/recycling-centres/worcester... about my local tip; they use the term "General waste" for any waste that does not go into any of the waste that is handled separately. This seems to fit the French use of "tout-venant" in this context.
Tony M Jul 26, 2012:
Re: reference comments the option to post a reference comment is disabled once you have submitted an actual answer, in whcih case, you can add your reference comments as an 'added note' under your answer.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jul 26, 2012:
@ Matt Hello Matt,

I have no reference post option for thsi one either.

When you go to a tip in France, the "tout-venant" takes anything that cannot go into a specific category or which is mixed. It can be nig and bulky, or small and light.

Some sources indicate that "tout-venant" is necessarily for voluminous items which are "encombrants", thus I agree that "bulky" would work there; but "bulky" not "bulk". There are a number of sources for "bulk waste" but this is a miuse of the word "bulk" as it should actually read "bulky".

"Bulk" waste, as with "bulk" cargo translates back as "en vrac". Indeed, "bulk waste" does seem to tie in with the meaning of "tout-venant" but as "bulk waste" seems to be used erroneously to mean "bulky waste", which "tout-venant" is not necessarily, then I would avoid it as a translation for that term.
MatthewLaSon Jul 25, 2012:
I am not able to post a "Reference" (not sure why, but there is no option for me to do so like there sometimes is)

See this definition:

Les déchets "tout-venant" sont les déchets encombrants apportés en déchèteries ou collectés en porte-à-porte. Ils sont tous apportés sur le Quai de Transfert de Rambouillet et subissent un tri en vue d’une valorisation. Les 2 fractions importantes issues

http://www.sitreva.fr/lenvironnement/les-filieres-de-valoris...

Recyclable Bulk Items:

Excess cardboard (emptied and flattened)
Metal items (Refrigerators, washers, dryers, water heaters, patio furniture, fencing, grills, AC units, evaporative coolers, etc.)
Electronics and small appliances (Computers, printers, televisions, stereos, microwaves, etc.)
Bulk Items:

Tree trimmings and yard clippings (City Code, Chapter 44-6 states requirements for bulk collection)
Broken, non-repairable furniture
Broken, non-repairable toys
Household trash and textiles

http://www.chandleraz.gov/default.aspx?pageid=232
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jul 24, 2012:
Wish we'd had the context earlier! I think if we'd had the more complete extract we'd have picked up what is basically a simple grammatical error, more likely than not a typo, in the original. The "feeling" many of us had was not in line with the grammar. Confronting our readings ironed it out.

Yes BD Finch, you are right about "masse" ("mass/Weight") of the whole bed, the turnkey version, ready to go.
B D Finch Jul 24, 2012:
Thanks for the context I think it is now clear that my reading was wrong (though it should be "destiné", not "destinée"). "Masse du lit" simply means the quantity of bed by weight rather than by volume. The 1.8% of that mass is clearly not recyclable scrap, so why not "non-recyclable general waste"?

www.york.ac.uk › ... › Infrastructure and services
" Non recyclable general waste. Non recyclable, non hazardous waste from labs and offices. Electrical waste. Small & medium sized electrical ."
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jul 24, 2012:
Thanks for the offer!
Tony M Jul 24, 2012:
Tables... Yes, please do, Wendy — I knew about some codes that work, but this is a new one on me.
Wendy Cummings (asker) Jul 24, 2012:
configuration I presume they have used the word configuré because although the document is written by the bed manufacturer, it does obtain some of the parts from other suppliers, and the purchaser doesn't have to go with all the options, so it means the bed "when fully assembled with all options attached"
Wendy Cummings (asker) Jul 24, 2012:
table insertion I created it myself using simple html, since all of Kudoz will process the code. Its not hard at all (would be happy to drop you an email explaining the code)
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jul 24, 2012:
(Ooo! I did ask recently if it were technically possible to have a table insertion facility in KudoZ as we often seem to need it. Looks like it's been done! )

As to the context, yes, Wendy, I agree with you. I find that the tricky bit now is udnerstanding what they mean by "masse du lit"!
As 98.2% of the "lit configuré" is apparently recyclable, then 1.8% seems to be bound for the "tout-venant". La "masse du lit" would seem to be synonymous with "lit configuré".
100% of wood, ferous and non-ferous metals are recycled, electroncis get specific treatment and 88.07% of the plastics are recycled.

I suppose "lit configuré" (and thus "la masse du lit") is to be read as being the bed as a whole.
Wendy Cummings (asker) Jul 24, 2012:
context Here is the full section for context:

<p>-Recyclabilité lit HR900
<p>
<table>
<tr><td>Element</td><td>% recycl. avec tri</td></tr>
<tr><td>Lit configuré</td><td>98.2 </td></tr>
<tr><td>Bois</td><td>100</td></tr>
<tr><td>Métaux f.</td><td>100</td></tr>
<tr><td>Métaux non f. </td><td>100</td></tr>
<tr><td>Electron.</td><td>traitement spécifique</td></tr>
<tr><td>Plastiques </td><td>88.07</td></tr>
</table>

-> 1.8 % de la masse du lit destinée au tout-venant, soit 2,64 kg.<p>

I've removed a couple of the columns from the table just for ease of reproduction, but this is the essence and which I read unambiguously as 98.2% gets recycled, and 1.8% doesn't:
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jul 24, 2012:
@ Wendy Given the reading many of us seem to have and the possibility that that reading is not supported by the grammar of the original, please would you psot your original phrase in fuller context? Could we have an extract of the original? The full paragraph? The sentence before/after?
I suspect it will not change the translation of "tout-venant" (hyphen) but it would help get a better picture.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jul 24, 2012:
We can make intelligent guesses as to what the small percentage actually comprises, but it is neither here nor there. Indeed, it is almost irrelevant. The whole point is it is in the miscellaneous category. It cannot be classified into any existing specific category. We cannot invent what the French does not say, so the final bits 'n' bobs of that 1.8% are irrelevant. On the subject of categories, see my additional note to my post.
Tony M Jul 24, 2012:
Tout venant (2) I think it's very important here to be careful in the assumptions we make about the intended meaning of 'tout-venant', as although the underlying notion is always the same, the actual intention of the term is heavily influenced by the context.

For example, in catering, foie gras that is described as 'tout venant' is basically second grade, suitable for general purpose use, but not for special purposes that may require first grade.

'Tout venant' is also used to refer to rubble or hardcore, in the specific sense of 'any old thing' — you often see signs saying that people want 'tout venant' for filling old excavations, building up sloping land, etc.

In domestic waste sorting over here, we have the various categories of separate waste, and then 'ordures ménagères', which means the left over miscellaneous stuff that can't be recycled (and is likely to go for incineration) — this category is broadly the same as the 'tout venant' category for larget-scale waste treatment.
Tony M Jul 24, 2012:
@ Wendy Absolutely!

That's exactly how I understood it too.
Wendy Cummings (asker) Jul 24, 2012:
What the bed is made of What I can gather from the rest of the text is that 98.2% of each bed could be sorted and recycled, and this is made of ferrous and non-ferrous metal, wood, plastics and electronic components (its a medical bed with all the various doo-dahs to control angle, attach monitors etc.). It is the manufacturers' wish to fully dismantle the beds, selectively sort them and send all the bits off to their respective waste streams. What's then left is this 1.8%. Although it doesn't specifically state what is leftover after the sorting, it hints that it is largely from the "plastics" category (e.g. overmoulding of electric wires that can't be stripped)
Tony M Jul 24, 2012:
Tout venant It's important to consider the meaning of this term in context; the notion of 'tout venant' is that of 'as-it-comes', 'any old thing' — and as Nikki has said, very often implies something that simply does not fit into any of the main categories used e.g. for sorting prior to recycling; the reason for this may well, of course, be that it is 'mixed'.

In the case of this bed, with its 1.8%, it is clear that this must be the very small amount that is left over that cannot be classified as 'scrap metal', etc. etc.; hence the implication that this is probably the part that cannot be (economically!) recycled, which I'm sure is the tenor of this text.
Gurudutt Kamath Jul 24, 2012:
Waste Somehow I do not find general waste, bulk waste, other waste fits in the context. Scrap is a better word and fits the context much better. However, 1.8% of a bed cannot be scrap (it would be much higher). Also, I do not think this 1.8% goes into land-fill.

Proposed translations

+4
1 hr
Selected

general waste

I think this fits your context for the UK. In this case:

1.8% of the bed by weight is (for) general waste.
Peer comment(s):
agree Tony M : Yes, i.e. cannot be separated / sorted / recycled.
10 mins
Many thanks.
agree Alison Sparks (X)
33 mins
Many thanks.
agree Branka Ramadanovic
1 hr
Many thanks.
neutral Gabrielle Leyden : le tout venant = unsorted waste
5 hrs
Many thanks.
neutral Jocelyne Cuenin : Si, Tony, on peut encore trier le tout-venant
18 hrs
Many thanks.
agree kashew
19 hrs
Many thanks.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "I let this discussion run for a while because everyone has had interesting contributions to make, but this was the solution I used, since given the topic of the document I think it will be understood by English speakers as "general waste that doesn't fall into the other categories that can be recycled, and its not particularly relevant in this particular case how large or small it is""
1 hr

mixed

Something went wrong...
1 hr

materials recovery

The name for such types of recyclable waste is "recoverable materials." If there is a site or actual facility where the sorting process occurs you may refer to the "tout-venant" as a "recovery materials facility" or "site" but it seems that this phrase indicates the general process to be used.
Example sentence:

1.8% of the bed intended for materials recovery, a total of 2.64 kg.

Reference:

http://www.millergroup.ca/waste_management/material_recovery/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materials_recovery_facility

Peer comment(s):
disagree Gabrielle Leyden : no, it's not a place, but the type of waste, i.e., general or unsorted waste
5 hrs
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : It may well end up there but that is one step (or more) beyond the meaning of "tout-venant" which anything that cannot fit into other categories.//We have no idea if it is recoverable, recyclable etc. Parts of it may be the former + the latter, or neither
8 hrs
agree Gurudutt Kamath : recyclable material, perhaps would be better. Even your own recoverable materials is good.
13 hrs
Thanks for the specifications, everyone. Given the information, I think mixed materials might also work since the phrase is not very specific on its own.
Something went wrong...
1 hr

scrap

As "tout venant" is generally stuff that gets used, rather than put in landfill.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2012-07-23 13:25:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

As I understand it, in the sentence "1.8 % de la masse du lit destinée au tout-venant, soit 2,64 kg", it is "la masse" that is "destinée au tout-venant", not the 1.8% of that mass. The 1.8% being, apparently, unusable as scrap.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : Interesting point about that f. agreement on 'destinée', but I can't help thinking that 'scrap' implies 'recyclable', whereas 'tout venant' implies 'not recyclable'
7 hrs
I think that "tout venant" is recyclable. Houses are/used to be built of it!
neutral Gurudutt Kamath : Scrap fits in the context quite well. But a mere 1.8% cannot be scrap. Also, tout venant does NOT imply "not recyclable" (read definition) and I do feel the 1.8% of bed is recyclable.
13 hrs
If you re-read my answer, you will see that I am saying that "tout venant" is recyclable scrap and that it applies to all of the bed except for the 1.8%!
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : I don't quite follow you here. It is the remaining 1.8% of the mas which is bound for the "tout-venant". I am coming round to thinking that plain old "scrap" might be absolutely fine. After all, it is the unclassifiable leftovers.///See my new add note!
21 hrs
Perhaps more context would have helped. However, I believe that "1.8 %" is masculine singular and would have been "destiné"
Something went wrong...
+1
14 hrs
French term (edited): tout-venant

bulk waste (see definition in French)

Hello,

This is not easy to translate without a "solid" definition in French (no pun intended). And I wouldn't translate as others have translated it above.

Please look here (explains it all):

Les DEEE : ce sont les déchets d’équipement électriques et électroniques (téléviseurs, réfrigérateurs, petits électroménagers, matériels informatiques)


Le tout-venant : il correspond aux autres gros déchets, essentiellement du mobilier usager (matelas, vieux meubles,…)


Les gravats : ce sont les déchets constitués de briques, de béton et de faïence (ils ne peuvent pas être collectés en porte à porte)

Do bear in mind that there is overlap between bulk waste and eletronic waste (le DEEE).


http://www.mairie-de-brenouille.fr/article/simpletext/819/



Bulk waste includes large items such as furniture and large appliances.

Bulk items also includes sofas, recliner chairs, tables, box springs, mattresses, dressers, large TVs, stoves, washers, dryers, toilets, hot water tanks, windows,

http://www.city.pittsburgh.pa.us/pw/html/bulky_waste.html



I hope this helps.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : But that is not the only meaning of 'tout-venant' (= 'as-it-comes'), and here, as only a meagre 1.8% of the bed is involved, it can hardly be very 'bulky'!
2 hrs
I am afraid it is "bulk waste", Tony. All the definitions I have in French say so. I see your point about "mass", but not everything that is "bulk waste" is necessarily heavy.
agree Jocelyne Cuenin : c'est bien tout ce qu'on jette dans un container, par ex., parce que cela ne rentre pas dans la poubelle et parce que cela ne trouve pas sa place dans le tri sélectif. D'ailleurs on peut se demander si la ferraille (scrap) y trouve sa place.
5 hrs
Thank you, Petitavoine. It has to be "bulk waste"
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : Bulk does not necessarily mean "bulky".//I was reading "bulk" as in "en vrac" yet on cehcking the web for "bulk waste" (Can, Aus, US) bulk = bulky. I agree thus far. However, not for "tout-venant" which can include voluminous and tiny elements, "en vrac".
8 hrs
I really don't see where you're coming from here. "Bulk waste" can include bulky items that small but perhaps awkward to handl like twigs, grass clippings, etc. It's really an all-purpose word for all waste that is not real simple to handle.
Something went wrong...
+2
11 hrs
French term (edited): tout-venant

other waste

think we have to be careful not to overthink this one, nor to go too far down the various stages invovled in the process of what happens to an item "destiné au tout-venant". It means unsorted, miscellaneous, anything you take to the local tip, that cannot be put in one of the specific categories. It is is unclassifiable, it may be mixed, it may not. Large items of furniture are good candidates for mixed waste and usually chucked into the "any ol' odds and *ods" skip.

"General waste" sounds a bit householdy and suggests small items. A bed is generally not small, nor is it light, but the percentage of the bed in the asker's original which ends up in the miscellaneous category is actually quite small. "Mixed waste" may be appropriate too as more than one type of material may be concerned. The essential meaning of "tout-venant" is that at the moment when it is put into the miscellaneous skip, it cannot be put into a single-label catgory skip. It may or may not be recyclable or reusable in part or in whole but at the point of disposal, the point is that the final destination is unknown. The original term speaks for itself in a way : it is "tout-VENANT" and we are not concerned with where it is "partant";-)!

1) http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/tout-venant
« non-trié », « non sélectionné »

2) http://www.northumberland.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=11887
Non-recyclables > Furniture
http://www.northumberland.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=11891#Fur...
Broken furniture items can be taken to your local Household Waste Recovery Centres. It may be possible to separate some items for recycling in the wood or metal skips. Please check with the site attendant on arrival.
Arrange a Bulky Waste Collection through the Council.
http://www.northumberland.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=874
http://www.northumberland.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=874#Furni...

3) http://environment-agency.resultspage.com/search?p=Q&ts=ev2&...

and

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/research/library/data/1...


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs (2012-07-23 22:51:33 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In context, "general waste", "mixed -", "miscellaneous -", "unsorted -". Any of these may fit the bill.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 hrs (2012-07-24 10:20:29 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Waste disposal hierarchy, 3R’s in the UK and 5 on a European level : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_hierarchy
We do not know whether the 1.8% is being reduced, reused or recycled “à l’anglaise” or with the additional recovery and disposal “à l’européenne”. Does it matter?


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day2 hrs (2012-07-24 14:14:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

With reference to my comment to BD Finch's suggestion and her comments :

"neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne: I don't quite follow you here. It is the remaining 1.8% of the mas which is bound for the "tout-venant". In any event, I am coming round to thinking that plain old "scrap" might be absolutely fine. After all, it is the unclassifiable leftovers. 21 hrs"

-> Perhaps more context would have helped. However, I believe that "1.8 %" is masculine singular and would have been "destiné"

"Extract posted :
1.8 % de la masse du lit destinée au tout-venant, soit 2,64 kg"

I do realize that the 1.8% is masculine and that “destinée”, feminine, thus agrees with “la masse”. From the context overall, I think most of us are reading the 1.8% to be the 2.64Kg and taking that percentage/weight to be what is actually heading for the miscellaneous skip.

If the whole mass of the bed is intended for the “tout-venant”, which makes sense of the grammar as presented, then the whole of the bed is bound for the “tout-venant” and the 1.8% is bound for another category.

If the 1.8% of the whole bed is intended for the “tout-venant”, then there is a mistake in the grammar, it should read “destiné”.

All the above may not be that important as it does not probably affect the way “tout-venant” is translated. ;-)



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day9 hrs (2012-07-24 20:46:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

So, we're coming round to there being a typo/grammar mistake with "destiné" and that this is indeed referring to the 1.8% of the total weight of the fully-equipped version of the bed which ends up in the "tout-venant" skip.
Peer comment(s):
agree Tony M
5 hrs
agree Jocelyne Cuenin : Le texte dit clairement qu'on peut trier le tout-venant avant de le considérer comme "residual". D'après mes recherches, je vois la benne de tout-venant comme ceci : non-hazardous household-type bulky waste excluding pre-sorted recyclables & rubble
8 hrs
neutral MatthewLaSon : I don't care for this as a translation. I think that "general waste" would be a tad better, although I think "bulk waste" is best. "Le tout-venant in the sense of "general waste" is more appropriate for a landfill context rather than rubbish collection.
3 days 54 mins
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

19 hrs
Reference:

Tout venant par élimination

Les déchets ménagers regroupent :
- les produits recyclables (papier, verre, emballage cartons, certains plastiques…)
- les ordures ménagères résiduelles
- le tout venant (meubles, literie, …)
- les déchets verts (tonte de la pelouse, taille des arbres…)
- les autres types de déchets (déchets électroniques et électriques, peintures, piles, ampoules, médicaments, …)

Page 12 voir benne tout venant :
http://www.google.de/#q=définition du tout venant déchets&hl...


...Par " déchets tout-venant ", il faut entendre ici les déchets issus des activités administratives et annexes, desquels ont été exclus les déchets dangereux, recyclables et réutilisables....

... Déchets tout venant classe 2
Container Classe 2

Déchets acceptés
Déchets inertes industriels (plastique, bois refusés en container bois, isolant, gyproc, bloc de plâtre, béton cellulaire ...




--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 hrs (2012-07-24 07:19:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

www.sinoe.org/.../consultElement.php?IDDOC...
pour page 12 : Guide méthodologique

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days23 hrs (2012-07-26 11:22:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

14 h, un lundi de décembre, c’est la valse des véhicules et des
remorques. Damien vient déposer des encombrants et de la ferraille.
Sept bennes principales sont à la disposition des habitants de l’agglomération : pour la ferraille (électroménager,
les grillages…), pour les gravats (terre, cailloux, briques,
ciment…), pour le tout venant (encombrants divers, sommiers,
matelas, moquettes…), pour le carton plié et propre, pour les déchets verts (pelouses, branchages…), pour le
bois (meubles, cageots…) et une septième pour les produits dits
«incinérables» (polystyrène, plastiques…).
Il est également possible de déposer les huiles usagées, batteries, pneus, piles et déchets ménagers
spéciaux (aérosols, pots de peinture, solvants…). Trois bornes d’apport volontaire sont également mises à
disposition pour les papiers, les emballages plastiques et le verre.
Il existe même un local «réemploi» pour les objets pouvant être
ré-utilisés par une structure à caractère social.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree MatthewLaSon : Il ne faut nécessairement pas que tous les déchets collectés soient lourds en poids/taille pour être considerés comme étant "du tout-venant". Selon toutes les définitions que j'ai lues jusqu'à maintenant, ça ne peut être que ça: "bulk waste" .
1 day 15 hrs
Something went wrong...
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