May 3, 2009 09:54
15 yrs ago
17 viewers *
English term
will be out of office until Thursday
English
Art/Literary
Linguistics
that's a message all e-mail recipients must have seen, but is Thursday included in the absence period or not? A colleague who writes that will always turn up on the said Thursday, which is not quite logical to me. If he wrote he'd be on holiday until Thursday, it could only mean Thursday is the last day of his holidays, right? So why would the meaning change when seen from office perspective? I, for one, write that I will be back on Friday.
Responses
| 3 | back Thursday |
Bernhard Sulzer
|
| 4 +11 | He will back in on Thursday |
Victoria Porter-Burns
|
| 4 | Friday is the first day in the office |
Lingua.Franca
|
References
| Until |
David Moore (X)
|
Responses
10 mins
Bernhard Sulzer
United States
United States
Works in field
United States
High quality at a reasonable price
Native in: German
Works in: English to German, German to English, German, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
6
Selected
back Thursday
this usually indicates to me that he/she will be gone until a certain day. on which he/she will return.
It's equivalent to back Thursday.
At least it is used as such here:
http://groups.google.com/group/coord-herat/browse_thread/thr...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 mins (2009-05-03 10:11:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
In the following example, a person remains out of office UNTIL Monday - a good indication that Monday (a workday) is not included in the out-of-office days but that Sunday is the last out-of-office day:
http://osflash.org/pipermail/flashjs_osflash.org/2006-April/...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 36 mins (2009-05-03 10:30:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
regarding your question:
the short answer is "usage in this particular (but also other) context(s)" - I will try to supply more info.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2009-05-03 11:13:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.forumosa.com/olympus2/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=42490&...
...why mention a date when you're not there ? Which is confusing and vague and therefore should be rephrased.
If you say "I'm working until Wednesday" It's obviously inclusive. But "I can't leave until Wednesday" is exclusive. :help:
I think the fact that you had to ask shows it can be ambigious.
A legal argument on the meaning of the word "until":
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/lawyers/opin ... 01_F2.html
I went along with the majority view that "I am out of the office until 1/9/2006" means you will resume work on the 9th. If the 9th is the last day of vacation it should read "I will be out of the office through 1/9/06."
Or, an attorney might state, "I will be out of the office up to and including 1/9/06."
----------
The possible ambiguity and importance of further context is discussed in the following link:
A bank statute valid UNTIL Jan. 1st is interpreted as excluding Jan 1st, meaning UNTIL here means up to and NOT including Jan. 1st.
In your context, the fact that Friday could be the last working day of the week makes it less likely that the person returns on Friday.
Also, "out" ... "until" could be a fairly strong argument for NOT BACK IN Until. The second date given also could be construed, in your context, as an indication that from that day on, you will be able to reach the person again.
If this is important to the recipient(s), they might also rather see the returning date as Thursday, just to make sure to reach the person at the earliest time.
Is it possible to interpret it as returning on Friday? Possible yes, but in this context I definitely lean towards returning on Thursday.
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/bureaus/appeals_opinions/opinions...
But if one is really anal about one's messages, the best solution might be that raised by others above, "I will be out of the office through 1/9/06 and will return on 1/10/06."
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2009-05-03 11:18:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
That last quote above is from the forum link and shows the possible ambiguity in interpreting this phrase. Nevertheless, I would not interpret it as such.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2009-05-03 11:27:03 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
definition of "until":
http://www.answers.com/until
It's equivalent to back Thursday.
At least it is used as such here:
http://groups.google.com/group/coord-herat/browse_thread/thr...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 mins (2009-05-03 10:11:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
In the following example, a person remains out of office UNTIL Monday - a good indication that Monday (a workday) is not included in the out-of-office days but that Sunday is the last out-of-office day:
http://osflash.org/pipermail/flashjs_osflash.org/2006-April/...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 36 mins (2009-05-03 10:30:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
regarding your question:
the short answer is "usage in this particular (but also other) context(s)" - I will try to supply more info.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2009-05-03 11:13:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.forumosa.com/olympus2/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=42490&...
...why mention a date when you're not there ? Which is confusing and vague and therefore should be rephrased.
If you say "I'm working until Wednesday" It's obviously inclusive. But "I can't leave until Wednesday" is exclusive. :help:
I think the fact that you had to ask shows it can be ambigious.
A legal argument on the meaning of the word "until":
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/lawyers/opin ... 01_F2.html
I went along with the majority view that "I am out of the office until 1/9/2006" means you will resume work on the 9th. If the 9th is the last day of vacation it should read "I will be out of the office through 1/9/06."
Or, an attorney might state, "I will be out of the office up to and including 1/9/06."
----------
The possible ambiguity and importance of further context is discussed in the following link:
A bank statute valid UNTIL Jan. 1st is interpreted as excluding Jan 1st, meaning UNTIL here means up to and NOT including Jan. 1st.
In your context, the fact that Friday could be the last working day of the week makes it less likely that the person returns on Friday.
Also, "out" ... "until" could be a fairly strong argument for NOT BACK IN Until. The second date given also could be construed, in your context, as an indication that from that day on, you will be able to reach the person again.
If this is important to the recipient(s), they might also rather see the returning date as Thursday, just to make sure to reach the person at the earliest time.
Is it possible to interpret it as returning on Friday? Possible yes, but in this context I definitely lean towards returning on Thursday.
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/bureaus/appeals_opinions/opinions...
But if one is really anal about one's messages, the best solution might be that raised by others above, "I will be out of the office through 1/9/06 and will return on 1/10/06."
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2009-05-03 11:18:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
That last quote above is from the forum link and shows the possible ambiguity in interpreting this phrase. Nevertheless, I would not interpret it as such.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2009-05-03 11:27:03 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
definition of "until":
http://www.answers.com/until
Note from asker:
| And if you get sick leave supported by a doctor's certificate saying you must stay in bed until Thursday? Would you still be back in office Thursday? Why would "Until Thursday" include the Thursday only part of the time? |
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
David Moore (X)
: It is as well to use month names, rather than the rather strange (to me) US way of writing dates
2 hrs
|
|
Thanks for your comment, David.
|
2 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "thanks for the effort to find some logic in it and not leaving it at "Thursday because I say so". Not that the arguments are very convincing, I'll just have to go with the popular vote though"
3 mins
Lingua.Franca
Spain
Spain
Native in English
&
English
Spain
BSc, MA, DipTrans
Native in: English
Works in: German to English, Hungarian to English, English, and 1 more.
Friday is the first day in the office
Still out on Thursday.
Usually people make it easier to understand by including a note that says something to the effect of "back on ....".
Usually people make it easier to understand by including a note that says something to the effect of "back on ....".
Note from asker:
| Colleague is a Brit, it that matters. |
| IF, not it |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Yasutomo Kanazawa
: Yes, I would interpret it as Friday is the first day in the office.
44 mins
|
| disagree |
David Moore (X)
: Sorry, Tamas, but that's definitely not the way it's interpreted in the UK
2 hrs
|
| agree |
Gary D
: it is the way I would say it, I will be out of the ofice until Thursday and back in the office on Friday.
2 hrs
|
| disagree |
Lirka
: back on Thursday, that's how I read it
3 hrs
|
| agree |
Tina Vonhof (X)
4 hrs
|
| disagree |
cmwilliams (X)
: no, 'until Thursday' means back in the office on Thursday.
6 hrs
|
+11
4 mins
Victoria Porter-Burns
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
&
English
United Kingdom
BA(Hons) FITI MCIL CL ISO 17100:2015
Native in: English 
Works in: French to English, Spanish to English, English, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
8
He will back in on Thursday
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Bernhard Sulzer
: I also read it as such, see my explanation. He will BE back in Thursday.
14 mins
|
|
Thanks, Bernhard
|
|
| agree |
cmwilliams (X)
33 mins
|
|
Thanks!
|
|
| disagree |
Yasutomo Kanazawa
: He may be back on Thursday, but he wouldn't show up at the office until Friday. Sorry, but my interpretation is different from yours. My understanding is that if you're out of office until Thursday, Thursday is included in the days you're not in the of
46 mins
|
|
Why not? If I say I'm out of the office UNTIL Thursday it means Thursday is when things change, I.e. I am back in the office
|
|
| agree |
David Moore (X)
: This is certainly the way it is understood for the UK
2 hrs
|
|
Thanks, David
|
|
| agree |
Jim Tucker (X)
2 hrs
|
|
Thanks, Jim
|
|
| agree |
K. Ganly (X)
: This is definately the way i understand it and would use it this way. ( in UK )
3 hrs
|
|
Thanks, Katharine
|
|
| agree |
Lirka
3 hrs
|
|
Thanks, lirka
|
|
| agree |
Jack Doughty
6 hrs
|
|
Thanks Jack!
|
|
| agree |
~Ania~
7 hrs
|
|
Thanks Ania :-)
|
|
| agree |
Anja Thys
8 hrs
|
|
Thanks Anja:-)
|
|
| agree |
Gert Sass (M.A.)
11 hrs
|
|
Thanks Gert!
|
|
| agree |
Lingua.Franca
: You're right :-)
12 hrs
|
|
Thank you, Tamas
|
|
| agree |
Tania McConaghy
1 day 9 hrs
|
|
Thanks Tania :-)
|
Reference comments
2 hrs
Reference:
Until
Pidzej, let me explain it like this: if you say you will be "out of the office until 10 o'clock", this means you will be back in the office from ten o'clock, doesn't it? By extension/analogy/parallel, if you say you will be "out of the office until Thursday", it means you will be "back in the office ON THURSDAY". Not on Friday...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2009-05-03 12:42:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Pidzej, it will be to your advantage to get a few peer comments to one of the answers from the USA as well, though I believe they have the same understanding as the UK.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2009-05-03 12:42:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Pidzej, it will be to your advantage to get a few peer comments to one of the answers from the USA as well, though I believe they have the same understanding as the UK.
Discussion