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araignee
balkan beam
Dec 20, 2008 00:31
15 yrs ago
1 viewer *
English term

commas

English Science Science (general) scientific writing
Please advise on the use of commas in the following sentence:

It has been established that (,) as the crack length decreases (,) the main plastic zone at the crack tip substantially reduces.
Responses
4 +12 first one not required, IMO; comma after decreases
4 +4 no comma after 'that'
5 +3 neither
3 +2 commas in both cases

Discussion

RHELLER Dec 21, 2008:
proper use of reduce "The plastic zone is substantially reduced" is correct here.
Nik-On/Off (asker) Dec 20, 2008:
Random House Webster's Unabridged Disctionary: reduce - to become reduced, to become lessened
Egil Presttun Dec 20, 2008:
My explanation It has been established that as the crack length decreases, the main plastic zone at the crack tip is substantially reduced.

Normally not comma after "that". Example: "It has been established that we don't know where to put the commas". The only reason to put a comma after "that" in the sentence in the question is that you want to pause after that word, so you put in a comma because you feel for it, not because of any comma rule.

Let's look at the rest of the sentence: "As the crack length decreases, the main plastic zone at the crack tip substantially reduces." There must be comma because we have an introductory element starting with "As", so comma is inserted between the introductory element and the main clause. Introductory elements starting with after, although, as, because, if, since, when or while are followed by a comma before the main clause.

You can't say "The plastic zone reduces". You can say "The plastic zone is reduced" or "The plastic zone decreases". If you say "The plastic zone reduces", I will ask: "What does the plastic zone reduce?".

Responses

+12
3 mins
Selected

first one not required, IMO; comma after decreases

IMO, it should read:

It has been established that as the crack length decreases, the main plastic zone at the crack tip substantially reduces.

Good luck.

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Note added at 6 mins (2008-12-20 00:37:25 GMT)
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http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_comma.html
The comma is a valuable, useful punctuation device because it separates the structural elements of sentences into manageable segments. The rules provided here are those found in traditional handbooks; however, in certain rhetorical contexts and for specific purposes, these rules may be broken.

1. Use commas to separate independent clauses when they are joined by any of these seven coordinating conjunctions: and, but, for, or, nor, so, yet.

and so on and so forth.

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Note added at 6 days (2008-12-26 11:33:42 GMT) Post-grading
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Thank you too Nik On/Off. Happy holidays.
Peer comment(s):
agree Operator1973 (X) : I think you are just right
5 mins
Thank you so much. Appreciate the "agree". Best wishes for the Holidays!
agree Kyle Petersen : However the sentence is very awkward. Try: It has been established that the main plastic zone at the crack tip is substantially reduced as the crack length decreases. (Still somewhat awkward with word choice). Perhaps edge of crack instead of crack tip.
7 mins
Thanks very much Kyle. While a tad "strange", that is what we have in front of us to work with. Again ta!
neutral Jennifer Levey : Your version doesn't need a comma either. And 'reduces' should come before 'substantially', not before. Better still, 'reduces' --> 'is subst. reduced' - but that's a different Kuestion...
20 mins
Sorry Media - as it relates to the question at hand, I disagree with your answer - the comma is needed; and secondly, "is substantially reduced" is a totally different question and one which we were not asked to comment on (& this you stated). Sorry!
agree Samantha Payn
1 hr
Thank you so much Samantha. Your validation is much appreciated. Happy holidays!
agree kironne : Agree :)
1 hr
Many thanks kironne. Appreciate your invaluable support. Un abrazo y ¡felices fiestas!
agree Sheila Wilson : Assuming it isn't going to be rewritten, then the sentence benefits from a comma after "decreases", although I'm not sure it's essential.
6 hrs
Thanks Sheila. Appreciate your comments. Season's greetings.
agree Jack Doughty : First comma not essential but not wrong, though in my opinion better without it; second comma necessary.
8 hrs
Thank you Jack. Appreciate your informed validation. Happy holidays!
agree Alexandra Taggart
9 hrs
Thank you Alex. I appreciate your support. Merry Christmas.
agree Dylan Edwards
11 hrs
Thank you very much Dylan. Much appreciated. Happy holidays!
agree chaman4723
11 hrs
Thank you chaman. Appreciate your support. Season's greetings.
agree Egil Presttun
13 hrs
Thank you so much Egil. Appreciate it. Happy holidays.
agree Lalit Sati
17 hrs
Thank you so much Lalit. Your support is appreciated. Merry Christmas!
agree Phong Le
1 day 7 hrs
Thank you very much Phong. I appreciate it. Happy holidays.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you all very much!"
+4
12 mins

no comma after 'that'

No comma after 'that' because 'as the crack length decreases' is a restrictive clause. A comma is required after 'decreases' because it follows an introductory element.

It has been established that as the crack length decreases, the main plastic zone is subtantially reduced at the crack tip.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Jennifer Levey : I agree with your first statement. But not with the second because there is only one item after the introductory element.
8 mins
In American English, we typically use commas after introductory elements. "Before I received my diploma, my father gave me a car."
agree Simon Mac : This would be my natural tendency (UK) and you get my 'agree' for your explanation
23 mins
agree kironne : Also agree :)
1 hr
agree Dylan Edwards : I agree with punctuating for clarity. 'as the crack length decreases' between commas looks as if it could mean 'because the crack length decreases'. 'decreases the main plastic zone' looks like a verb with its object.
11 hrs
agree chaman4723 : No comma after 'that'
11 hrs
Something went wrong...
+3
14 mins

neither

If I were editing that text I would delete BOTH commas.

Source: 25+ years in technical editing for readers of international English.
Peer comment(s):
agree Polangmar : If the phrase isn't a parenthetical insertion, you don't need any commas.
20 mins
Hmmm Thanks. But do you know the English expression 'Sitting on the fence'? In your opinion, is there a 'parenthetical insertion' in the source text?
agree Aldona Parra
1 hr
agree kironne : Also agree. There is no parenthetical insertion.
1 hr
disagree Egil Presttun : I have explained my point of view in the discussion field above.
13 hrs
agree SJLD : I would delete both commas and put "as the crack length decreases" at the end of the sentence - problem solved.
1 day 11 hrs
Something went wrong...
+2
11 mins

commas in both cases

I'm not very good on explaining why, but I would put commas in both cases, though I'm sure Taña suggestion isn't wrong.

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Note added at 18 mins (2008-12-20 00:49:53 GMT)
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Ok here's an explanation: It's a parenthetical clause which has been inserted in the main clause:

"Here's an example of where commas should be used to make the sense clearer:

There is also a feeling that even when they want to people cannot link language to their sentiments.

This reads better with commas indicating the parenthetical clause: There is also a feeling that, even when they want to, people cannot link language to their sentiments.

In this parenthetical form, the commas mark out a qualification or a condition. In this case it is an intensifier. " http://www.litencyc.com/stylebook/stylebook.php
Peer comment(s):
agree Eneida Gonzalez
22 mins
agree Polangmar : If the phrase is a parenthetical insertion, you need two commas.
22 mins
neutral Simon Mac : To me, this doesn't appear to be a parenthetical insertion - if you remove that part of the sentence it no longer makes sense
29 mins
neutral Sheila Wilson : In the example given, yes - 2 commas required. In the text in question, I agree with the above comment
6 hrs
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