| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | do not or don't Thread poster: adremco
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Paul Dixon 
Brazil
Local time: 09:28
Portuguese to English
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| Contractions, Use of | Nov 9, 2009 |
My rule of thumb is:
business and other formal texts - full forms
informal texts - contractions
| | | | John Fossey
Canada
Local time: 08:28
Member (2008)
French to English
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| Register is important | Nov 9, 2009 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
I don't think contractions either help or hinder communication, they simply serve to alter the register - a not insignificant factor in a translation.
Precisely. The intended register is important. Most of what I translate is technical and standards related, where contractions for convience - such as "don't" - definitely do not (don't) belong. Where, also, its important to note the distinction between "can" (to be able to) and "may" (to have permission to).
But on occasion I have done documents such as a speech, where the extended form "do not" would be odd, since it's never used in spoken language. So it's important to get the register correct for the document's purpose.
| | | | | Putting the record straight | Nov 9, 2009 |
Not sure if my point was understood or whether I fail to convey the message I was trying to transmit, so here comes an explanation.
There is a clear tendency to simplify English grammar that nobody will be able to stop, especially with SMS language to hasten the process but surely, even if you teach students the "new" forms, it is also worth telling them about "correct" or what you would all probably call "old-fashioned" grammar and the clever and useful nuances that can be conveyed... See more Not sure if my point was understood or whether I fail to convey the message I was trying to transmit, so here comes an explanation.
There is a clear tendency to simplify English grammar that nobody will be able to stop, especially with SMS language to hasten the process but surely, even if you teach students the "new" forms, it is also worth telling them about "correct" or what you would all probably call "old-fashioned" grammar and the clever and useful nuances that can be conveyed by judicious use of can/may, will/shall, the subjective... etc.?
As to the comments about US English and its inclusiveness, first I know very little about the US version of the language and second I'm not sure - even after several readings - that I quite got the point that was being made. I fear it may have something to do with lowest common denominators but I hope I'm wrong.
Last but not least, I was expressing surprise in my comment and, as I said at the time, not out to start a polemic. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 13:28
Member (2007)
English
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| No polemic, merely discussion | Nov 9, 2009 |
polyglot45 wrote:
There is a clear tendency to simplify English grammar that nobody will be able to stop, especially with SMS language to hasten the process
Simplifying English is one thing; the sort of phonetic shorthand that is bound to be used for SMS is another - I personally would never teach it as "correct" for normal written texts, although I do teach the most common abbreviations used in emails (asap, btw, pls, ...). Students at least need to understand them.
but surely, even if you teach students the "new" forms, it is also worth telling them about "correct" or what you would all probably call "old-fashioned" grammar
The problem is knowing where to stop. The "correct" grammar you refer to mostly wasn't in the grammar books of Shakespear's time. They had an entirely different idea of how to write correct English. Should we teach that, too?
and the clever and useful nuances that can be conveyed by judicious use of can/may, will/shall, the subjective... etc.?
Most certainly I would teach these nuances to a student with an advanced level of English who had the time and interest to study the language in more depth.
In short, I think we have a duty, as native English speakers, to let others into our language club. I'm not somehow superior because I have an in-depth knowledge of all the subtleties of the English language, my students are not inferior because they have fewer choices when speaking English. My job as an English trainer is to hold the clubhouse door open and welcome non-native speakers to join. As with every club, there have to be rules, but they should be kept simple.
I think we have the same aim as translators - good texts written in a natural style fitting to the register. I'm sure there's room for the views of both of us and I take no affront and mean none.
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Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 14:28
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
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| Many types of students and their "aspirations" | Nov 9, 2009 |
polyglot45 wrote:
even if you teach students the "new" forms, it is also worth telling them about "correct" or what you would all probably call "old-fashioned" grammar and the clever and useful nuances that can be conveyed by judicious use of can/may, will/shall, the subjective... etc.?
Yes, but that also depends on the type of students.. do they know those nuances, rules and distinctions in their native language? The answer is: no, they don't, for the most part. At least not if they are students pursuing quick and general English course. Native speakers also commonly confuse may and can in my native language, although we have two separate modals for this, just like in English ( moći and smjeti). You will hear about 98 % of the local population using moći instead of smjeti for permission, but it became colloquial and the "right" thing to say. From this point of view, Sheila is absolutely right about a language being a living entity that changes by its own independent dynamic. This is an illustrative example, where the modal can changed its meaning into "asking for permission, request" through an independent language development, while it hadn't had that meaning originally. It originally meant only " having the ability to do something"
For example, if I have a student that had never had any touch with linguistics, I would have hard time explaining them the differences between indicative and subjunctive... ( even in their native language, let alone a foreign language). They usually take the course with a presumption that a language can be learned quickly and overnight. I wish they knew it's the nuances that separate "fluency" from "proficiency". But "fluency" is obviously good enough for them. Never mind people on the other side of the communication bridge will often be perplexed with their "gem" wording and phrasing.
[Edited at 2009-11-09 11:48 GMT]
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