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Glossary entry

English term or phrase:

ruff

Hungarian translation:

gallér

Added to glossary by Kulcsár Sándor
Jul 9, 2010 09:51
13 yrs ago
English term

ruff

English to Hungarian Science Zoology
We have all seen television documentaries how some lizards expand their ruff around their necks when threatened by a predator to look larger than life.
Proposed translations (Hungarian)
5 +5 gallér
5 +1 nyakfodor
Change log

Jul 9, 2010 11:52: Péter Tófalvi changed "Field" from "Other" to "Science" , "Field (specific)" from "Livestock / Animal Husbandry" to "Zoology"

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (1): Ildiko Santana

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Discussion

Katalin Szilárd Jul 18, 2010:
Yes, it is true: what is obvious for someone, may not be obvious for someone else. When I answered this question I put the category of this question into "Tip of the tongue" type of question. When somebody is tired for example and someone else says the required term then the other says "I knew it! It was on the tip of my tongue". But maybe you are right this question was not so obvious. Anyway I think this question has been over-discussed by now.
Katalin Horváth McClure Jul 18, 2010:
It was not "so obvious" When there is another answer, that also has Wikipedia references, then the only thing that is obvious is that there are two possibilities. That is when it is important to have a better reference, that would provide an argument against the other answer, better than "it refers to an article of clothing". Again, you did not need to "defend" your answer, nobody said it was incorrect. The only thing that I questioned was your line of argument against the other answer.
Katalin Szilárd Jul 18, 2010:
"To start with" I have never thought that I should defend my own answer in this question, since it was so obvious. No reason for wasting time searching for more credible links at this question because when somebody reads galléros gyík, then she/he will think: "Of course, it's logical". Since the Wikipedia link in my answer is correct, I added it as a reference. But this question is obvious without any references.
Katalin Horváth McClure Jul 15, 2010:
But you just added more, and it is pretty good The MTA source is credible, so is the paleontologist involved in that discovery. That is a very good reference, it would have been good to start with that... It would be still a good idea to include it in your answer, as that is what future users will see (not the discussion area), and Wikipedia quotes - as you said - are often unreliable, unfortunately. Adding these references to your answer would provide the necessary credibility. Thank you!
Katalin Szilárd Jul 14, 2010:
I cannot add more to this question I know the correct term and I also know that any biologist or biology teacher would cross out the term "nyakfodor'.
I think a link from ELTE, or a link of MTA and a quote said by a paleontologist could be called professional references.
I cannot add more to this question. I think any biologist would confirm my version.

http://tudomany.ma.hu/tart/cikk/h/0/70679/1/tudomany/Szenzac...

"A tülkös vagy galléros dinoszauruszok csoportjába sorolható. A legközelebbi rokonai Ázsiából, a Góbi-sivatagból ismertek.

http://www.mta.hu/index.php?id=634&no_cache=1&backPid=417&tt...

Galléros dinoszaurusz a Bakonyból
Katalin Horváth McClure Jul 14, 2010:
"Professional" references Frankly, I do not think Netlexikon is any more reliable and professional than Wikipedia. The article you linked to is full of typos, and it is old text. Mentioning "Stuart-gallér" is particularly funny, as this is the kind of collar found on king's and queens clothes. See description here: http://www.fashiontime.hu/divatlexikon/931/
and picture here:
http://static.fotoalbum.hu/picturepreview/2010/01-16/imrus05...

I usually check the history page of Wikipedia articles. It is not clear who the author of the article is where you state "the author the correct term" (sic!), but the people who reviewed it (such as Misibacsi, an electric engineer) have no higher and more professional qualifications in the field than the author and reviewers of the articles I linked to.
Katalin Szilárd Jul 14, 2010:
Quoting correctly I wrote:

"If you check the links, you mentioned - almost all of them refer to Wikipedia."

But I also wrote:
Sometimes they are correct, sometimes not. If other professional links confirm the correctness of a Wikipedia page, then it can be used as a reference.

Only on Wikipedia you find the term nyakfodor for reptiles.
But anyway you don't need any kind of links or dictionaries or encyclopedia, the first thing what comes to a Hungarian person's mind is the Hungarian term "galléros gyík". Biology lesson - elementary school. It is so obvious. This answer cannot be failed.

Nyakfodor is incorrect. But we can easily ask any colleagues, who graduated in biology in a Hungarian university, to be absolutely sure that the term nyakfodor used concerning reptiles is not correct, also sounds weird in Hungarian if you connect reptiles and nyakfodor. The correct Hungarian term is gallér.
Katalin Horváth McClure Jul 14, 2010:
Wikipedia and other resources "If you check the links, you mentioned - almost all of them refer to Wikipedia."
Funny you should say this, as the links in your answer are from Wikipedia as well.
I agree that resources should be checked, and on the Internet it is pretty much free game, anybody can write anything.
Repeating "galléros gyík" over an over, in bold face does not make "nyakfodor" incorrect. I have yet to see a proof of this statement: "But calling the skin of a reptile as "nyakfodor" is absolutely incorrect and sounds funny in Hungarian. " - especially the "absolutely" part. (By the way, the ruff, frill is not only skin.)
Katalin Szilárd Jul 14, 2010:
Professional links 2. http://www.netlexikon.hu/yrk/Gbyanv/28301

De eltörpült a mindössze 70 cm.-es, két lábon ugráló Compsognathus ősgyík is, amely ugyanoly kecsesen mozoghatott, mint Uj-Zealand földjének mai galléros gyíkjai.

Mindbenki inkább emlősállatnak, legalább is orrszarvúnak nézné a Triceratops ősgyíkot, amelynek nyaktáját szépen ívelt Stuart-gallér védte, orrnyílásai és szemei fölött pedig két hosszabb és rövidebb szarvat viselt.

A Wikipedia link, where the author the correct term:

http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinoszauruszok_evolúciója

A ceratopsiák legismertebb képviselői a Protoceratops, a Triceratops és a Styracosaurus, melyeken jól megfigyelhető a csontgallér és a tülkök fejlődése. A gallér az összes marginocephaliára jellemző peremből fejlődött ki.
Katalin Szilárd Jul 14, 2010:
Reptiles have "gallér" and not "nyakfodor" Please, check professional links:

http://www.termeszetvilaga.hu/szamok/tv2007/tv0705/dulai.htm...

A Triceratops szarvának és nyak körüli gallérjának változása az egyedfejlődés során

http://torokjul.web.elte.hu/keteltu_hullo_A.txt

A nyakörvös gyíkoknak ún. gallérja van: ami határvonalat jelent a nyaki kerek vagy kúpos és a hasi négyszögletű pikkelyek között (3. ábra). Néhány fajnál ez a gallér hiányzik, de a hazai fajoknál mindig megtalálható.

http://vmek.oszk.hu/03400/03408/html/1709.html

5. Galléros gyíkok (Chlamydosaurus Gray)
A pikkelyes gyíkoknak egyik legkülönösebb nemzetségét Cunningham fedezte föl a tudomány számára. Ez a nemzetség minden rokonától főként „gallér”-ja révén különbözik. Ez a gallér a nyak oldalain nő ki, sugáralakban álló porclécek támogatják, szélein csipkés, felületét finom pikkelyek borítják, odasímul a torokhoz s főként a nyakszirten fejlődik ki nagyszerűen s ernyő módjára minden oldalon körülbelül 15 cm szélesre terjeszthető ki sőt a fejre is ráborítható.
Katalin Szilárd Jul 14, 2010:
@ Katalin A Hungarian biologist would start a long debate about this.
If you check the links, you mentioned - almost all of them refer to Wikipedia. We all know that Wikipedia links can be created & translated by anybody. Sometimes they are correct, sometimes not. If other professional links confirm the correctness of a Wikipedia page, then it can be used as a reference.
But calling the skin of a reptile as "nyakfodor" is absolutely incorrect and sounds funny in Hungarian.

The link of index.hu was probably translated and many times they use Wikipedia. The hu-winelib.com link also mentions Wikipedia as the source material. The link hobbyrendeles.hu also used Wikipedia translation word by word:

http://www.hobbyrendeles.hu/index.php?todo=properties&op=0&m...

A nagy nyakfodorral és három szarvval rendelkező, négy lábon mozgó, a modern orrszarvúéhoz hasonló testű Triceratops az egyik legkönnyebben felismerhető dinoszaurusz.

http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triceratops

A nagy nyakfodorral és három szarvval rendelkező, négy lábon mozgó, a modern orrszarvúéhoz hasonló testű Triceratops az egyik legkönnyebben felismerhető dinoszaurusz.
Katalin Horváth McClure Jul 14, 2010:
Post-closing comment - just noticed the question I wanted to mention that the Hungarian term "nyakfodor" is not incorrect in this context at all. It is true, that this term is used to describe a part of clothing, a ruffled collar, but it is used to describe the ruff or frill of lizards, dinosaurs and such. The other suggested term, "gallér" also has a meaning of a clothing part, it actually means "collar", so that argument against "nyakfodor" does not stand, as the same argument could be made for "gallér". There are several articles that use "nyakfodor" to name this body part of lizards and dinos, here are a few examples (I only post the links, there are plenty of sample sentences on these pages):
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrosaurus
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styracosaurus
http://index.hu/tudomany/2010/06/23/a_vilag_legnagyobb_dinos...
http://hu.winelib.com/wiki/Chasmosaurus
http://www.hobbyrendeles.hu/index.php?todo=properties&op=0&m...

In summary, there are at least two widely used terms to describe this body part in English: ruff and frill (others are flounce, ruffle and furbelow), and two in Hungarian: gallér and nyakfodor, and they are interchangable.
Katalin Szilárd Jul 13, 2010:
@ Amanda We are talking about an English to Hungarian term translation.
In Hungarian the Hungarian term "nyakfodor" means an article of clothing, a ruffle around the neck and it has nothing to do with animals, or a special skin around the animal's neck, so we cannot use the term nyakfodor. If you say nyakfodor to a Hungarian she/he will think about this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Molenstee...

We have a word for this special skin around the neck of lizards and it's called: "gallér". Also we have a name of a lizard with "galléros gyík": http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q="galléros gyík"&aq=...

http://vmek.oszk.hu/03400/03408/html/1709.html

5. Galléros gyíkok (Chlamydosaurus Gray)

A pikkelyes gyíkoknak egyik legkülönösebb nemzetségét Cunningham fedezte föl a tudomány számára. Ez a nemzetség minden rokonától főként „gallér”-ja révén különbözik. Ez a gallér a nyak oldalain nő ki, sugáralakban álló porclécek támogatják, szélein csipkés, felületét finom pikkelyek borítják, odasímul a torokhoz s főként a nyakszirten fejlődik ki nagyszerűen s ernyő módjára ..
Katalin Szilárd Jul 9, 2010:
Kösz Köszönöm a módosítást. :)
Katalin Szilárd Jul 9, 2010:
Próbáltam módosítani, de nem találtam a módosítási opciót. :)
Sőt most sem találom, és más kudoz esetében sem.
Editorként vagy megjelölve, ezért tudod módosítani. Szóval legközelebb sem tudom módosítani, de akkor majd szólok Neked. :)
Péter Tófalvi Jul 9, 2010:
Most módosítottam én de legközelebb te is módosíthatod.
Gyorsabb, mint leírni.
Katalin Szilárd Jul 9, 2010:
Szerintem helytelen a kategória megnevezése Nem tudom, hogy a kérdező utólag tudja-e módosítani a kategóriát. De a szövegkörnyezet alapján ez szerintem nem livestock/animal husbandry (azaz nem haszonállat/állattenyésztés), vagy legalábbis remélem, hogy ezeket a szerencsétlen állatokat nem pakolják ketrecekbe, és nem árulják őket házi kedvencként. A megadott mondat alapján ez Science azon belül pedig Zoology.

Proposed translations

+5
5 mins
Selected

gallér

Szerintem ez nem animal husbandry kategória, hanem zoology.

Chlamydosaurus kingii -> galléros gyík

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frill-necked_Lizard

The frill-necked lizard (Chlamydosaurus kingii), also known as the frilled lizard or frilled dragon, is found mainly in northern Australia and southern New Guinea. Its name comes from the large frill around its neck, which usually stays folded against the lizard's body. It is largely arboreal, spending the majority of the time in the trees. The lizard's diet consists mainly of insects and small vertebrates. The frill-necked lizard is a relatively large lizard, reaching up to 91.4 cm in length. It may also be kept in captivity.

http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galléros_gyík


A galléros gyík más néven King galléros gyíkja vagy galléros agáma (Chlamydosaurus kingii) a hüllők (Reptilia) osztályának a pikkelyes hüllők (Squamata) rendjéhez, ezen belül a gyíkok (Sauria vagy Lacertilia) alrendjéhez, a leguánalakúak (Iguania) alrendágához és az agámafélék (Agamidae) családjához tartozó Chlamydosaurus nem egyetlen faja.

Az állat hossza 45-90 centiméter, gallér átmérője 20-25 centiméter és testtömege maximum 500 gramm. A gyík testének színe barna. A nagypikkelyes és egészében vagy részben fogazott szélű gallér színe a gyík élőhelyétől függően eltérő lehet. A gallért teste két oldalán és nyaka alatt összehajtogatva viseli. A gallér szétnyitásakor láthatóvá válnak a hosszú redők. Ha a gyík megijed, szétnyitja gallérját, nagyra nyitott szájjal sziszegő hangokat hallat, és farkával ide-oda csapkod. A gallér kimerevítését a nyelvcsonti szarvacskák teszik lehetővé. Színváltoztatásra is képes, bár színskálája jóval szegényesebb, mint a kaméleonoké.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 days (2010-07-18 13:08:12 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

http://tudomany.ma.hu/tart/cikk/h/0/70679/1/tudomany/Szenzac...

Azt a csoportot, amelybe tartozik, nagyon leegyszerűsítve papagájcsőrű dinoszauruszoknak is szokás nevezni, pont ez a papagájcsőrszerű rész került elő" - mondta az MTI-nek Ősi Attila, geológus, paleontológus, a bakonyi dinoszaurusz-lelőhely egyik felfedezője, a Magyar Tudományos Akadémia és a Magyar Természettudományi Múzeum Paleontológiai Kutatócsoportjának tudományos munkatársa.

"A tülkös vagy galléros dinoszauruszok csoportjába sorolható. A legközelebbi rokonai Ázsiából, a Góbi-sivatagból ismertek. A lelet egyik legfontosabb aspektusa, hogy ez az első biztosan ceratopsia maradvány, amely Európában előkerült.

http://www.mta.hu/index.php?id=634&no_cache=1&backPid=417&tt...

Magyar Tudományos Akadémia

Galléros dinoszaurusz a Bakonyból
Peer comment(s):
agree Klára Kalamár
12 mins
Köszönöm!
agree Iosif JUHASZ
8 hrs
Köszönöm!
agree Tradeuro Language Services
20 hrs
Köszönöm!
agree Péter Tófalvi
4 days
Köszönöm!
agree Katalin Horváth McClure : This is equally good as the other suggestion. "galler" also means part of cloths, it means "collar". So both the English and the Hungarian versions have double meaning: one for lizards, one for clothes, and they are all correct.
5 days
Thank you for the peer comment. Although I absolutely don't agree with that nyakfodor can also an option. Nyakfodor cannot be used as the skin around a reptile's neck. See further information in the discussion.
Something went wrong...
1 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Köszönöm a segítséget."
+1
1 day 2 hrs

nyakfodor

I just prefer this in respect to lizards!
Peer comment(s):
neutral Katalin Szilárd : The Hungarian term "nyakfodor" is an article of clothing. A ruffle around the neck: http://www.divatportal.hu/nyakfodor.html You can see a picture here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Molenstee...
1 day 7 hrs
Yes, it is also the same in English!
agree Katalin Horváth McClure : This term is also correct, and used to describe that body part of lizards and dinosaurs.
4 days
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