Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
motif impropre
English translation:
improper grounds; inadmissible grounds; incorrect grounds; unacceptable basis; etc. (q.v.)
Added to glossary by
TechLawDC
Dec 8, 2020 12:02
3 yrs ago
44 viewers *
French term
motif impropre
French to English
Law/Patents
Law (general)
Court of Cassation shenanigans: not liking, indeed rebuking, as it is wont to do, an appeal judgment.
"Par un arrêt du 1 novembre 2017, la Cour de cassation a exercé sa censure, aux motifs que :
« l'arrêt retient que les conclusions 12 juin 2015 avaient pour objet unique d'interrompre le délai de péremption et non de poursuivre l'instance puisque la seule demande qui y était formulée était une demande de sursis à statuer et que la radiation ayant été prononcée parce que les parties ne souhaitaient pas que le litige soit jugé avant la multitude d'autres recours qu'ils avaient intentés, la demande de réinscription n'avait pas pour objet de poursuivre l'instance mais seulement de faire échec à la péremption ;
En statuant ainsi alors qu'une demande de sursis à statuer est susceptible de constituer une diligence interruptive du délai de péremption, la cour d'appel, qui s'est déterminée par un motif impropre relatif à la radiation, a violé l'article 386 du code de procédure civile »."
The trouble is that impropre could be many things: "improper", "unfit", "inappropriate", "incorrect", "insufficient" possibly. Or possibly something quite specific like "unlawful" ...
"Par un arrêt du 1 novembre 2017, la Cour de cassation a exercé sa censure, aux motifs que :
« l'arrêt retient que les conclusions 12 juin 2015 avaient pour objet unique d'interrompre le délai de péremption et non de poursuivre l'instance puisque la seule demande qui y était formulée était une demande de sursis à statuer et que la radiation ayant été prononcée parce que les parties ne souhaitaient pas que le litige soit jugé avant la multitude d'autres recours qu'ils avaient intentés, la demande de réinscription n'avait pas pour objet de poursuivre l'instance mais seulement de faire échec à la péremption ;
En statuant ainsi alors qu'une demande de sursis à statuer est susceptible de constituer une diligence interruptive du délai de péremption, la cour d'appel, qui s'est déterminée par un motif impropre relatif à la radiation, a violé l'article 386 du code de procédure civile »."
The trouble is that impropre could be many things: "improper", "unfit", "inappropriate", "incorrect", "insufficient" possibly. Or possibly something quite specific like "unlawful" ...
Proposed translations
(English)
References
| This should help |
AllegroTrans
|
Change log
Dec 11, 2020 18:28: TechLawDC Created KOG entry
Proposed translations
+3
10 mins
Selected
improper grounds; inadmissible grounds; incorrect grounds; unacceptable basis; etc. (q.v.)
The Court of Appeals, which dismissed [the Appeal] based on improper grounds
Alternative 1: … inadmissible grounds.
Alternative 2: … incorrect grounds.
Alternative 3: The Court of Appeals, which failed to state an acceptable basis for its dismissal [of the Appeal],
Alternative 4: The Court of Appeals, in failing to state an acceptable basis for its dismissal [of the Appeal],
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Note added at 17 mins (2020-12-08 12:20:32 GMT)
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The Court of Appeals, which dismissed [the Appeal] based on improper grounds (for the dismissal)
Alternative 1: … inadmissible grounds (for the dismissal).
Alternative 2: … incorrect grounds (for the dismissal).
Alternative 1: … inadmissible grounds.
Alternative 2: … incorrect grounds.
Alternative 3: The Court of Appeals, which failed to state an acceptable basis for its dismissal [of the Appeal],
Alternative 4: The Court of Appeals, in failing to state an acceptable basis for its dismissal [of the Appeal],
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 mins (2020-12-08 12:20:32 GMT)
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The Court of Appeals, which dismissed [the Appeal] based on improper grounds (for the dismissal)
Alternative 1: … inadmissible grounds (for the dismissal).
Alternative 2: … incorrect grounds (for the dismissal).
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: All very well to quote alternatives used by a US court, but what is needed here is the precise meaning of asker's term as used by the Cour de Cassation in France
2 mins
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What a FR author would say in English is irrelevant. As to UK English, I did not investigate the alternatives such as your "erred in law", a fortiori since my answer was submitted before yours. Ditto re "striking out" which I've never seen anywhere.
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| agree |
Carol Gullidge
: improper/inadmissable grounds looks good to me; and I assumed this was meant to be a translation, not a précis/explanation in EN (see AT's msg above)
25 mins
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| neutral |
Daryo
: which one is supposed to be the right one for this ST?
7 hrs
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| neutral |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: I suggest "erroneous grounds". "Improper" implies morality; the specific notion of "admissibility" does not apply.
23 hrs
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| agree |
Becca George
1 day 1 hr
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| agree |
Eliza Hall
: Improper grounds or improper basis. I disagree w/Nikki; in legal EN, "improper" means procedurally or legally improper. It hasn't got moral implications.
1 day 4 hrs
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3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks"
+1
17 mins
AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
Specializes in field
United Kingdom
Sensible solutions
Native in: English (Variant: Wessexois) 
Works in: French to English, English, English to French
Related KudoZ points
:
1355
erred in law
I think in English court speak, this would be that the lower court "erred in law" - a phrase consistently used by judges
uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com › ...
25 Jun 2020 — Employment tribunal erred in law by focusing on employer's decision-making process when considering if discrimination arising from disability ...
Grounds of appeal—appealing a finding of fact | Legal ...
www.lexisnexis.co.uk › legal › guidance › grounds-of-ap...
... trial judge had erred in law. For detailed analysis, see News Analysis: Suspension does not breach the implied term of trust and confidence provided employer ...
uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com › ...
25 Jun 2020 — Employment tribunal erred in law by focusing on employer's decision-making process when considering if discrimination arising from disability ...
Grounds of appeal—appealing a finding of fact | Legal ...
www.lexisnexis.co.uk › legal › guidance › grounds-of-ap...
... trial judge had erred in law. For detailed analysis, see News Analysis: Suspension does not breach the implied term of trust and confidence provided employer ...
Note from asker:
| Aha... excellent. Just as I said in reply to your reference entry, glossing over whether the appeal court did actually reach the right solution. |
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Carol Gullidge
: I don't see that this is relevant to this particular case :(
25 mins
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I see the Fr expressiion as a way of saying precisely this and a literal translation as not encapsulating the true meaning at all
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| agree |
philgoddard
: I think this is fine. It gave the wrong reason for its decision.
1 hr
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Yes, but on grounds of law since the French Court of Cassation can only rule on issues of law
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| agree |
Daryo
: could work, but then you would need to reshuffle the sentence
10 hrs
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thanks
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| neutral |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: "erroneous grounds" would be my take here. I suggest that it explains the French approach.
23 hrs
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| disagree |
Eliza Hall
: This strays too far from the original. There are FR terms for legal error/error of law/etc., but this isn't one of them. Deciding a case on improper grounds is legal error, but that's not what the FR *says.*
1 day 4 hrs
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-1
32 mins
Bokani Hart
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
Specializes in field
United Kingdom
Human Rights, Energy and Sustainable Dev
Native in: English (Variants: British, UK)
Works in: French to English, English to French, English, and 1 more.
improper motive
See...
https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/1095144.pdf?refreqid=excels...
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/235289904.pdf
https://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/independ...
https://www.employmentlawworldview.com/employer-representati...
https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/1095144.pdf?refreqid=excels...
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/235289904.pdf
https://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/independ...
https://www.employmentlawworldview.com/employer-representati...
Note from asker:
| "improper motive"? Sounds like something Sid James might have in Carry On Up The Bailey |
| "improper motive"? Sounds like something Judge Sid James might have in Carry On Up The Bailey when he orders Babs Windsor to be bound over in his Chambers... oo-er. |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Carol Gullidge
: I'd also go with this - as long as it isn't synonymous with malicious intent. Btw, I (and presumably I'm not the only one) can no longer access JSTOR, so the actual article would be more helpful than just the link/ I guess you'd have had to copy it out...
17 mins
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Thanks Carol. I've got a pdf copy of the JSTOR article that I can share, but how? As part of a note?
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| disagree |
Daryo
: in the last 3 "references" the literal would-be translation "motive" can be found, but is used ***in a meaning that has nothing to do with*** "les motifs d'une décision de justice".
6 hrs
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| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: Sounds like a moral judgement
1 day 34 mins
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| disagree |
Eliza Hall
: Courts don't have "motives" in legal English.
1 day 4 hrs
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| agree |
Lisa Rosengard
: In normal English motives are the reasons or incentives for causing an action.
1 day 10 hrs
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| disagree |
Adrian MM.
: 'a literal translation is usually a wrong one'
2 days 22 hrs
|
8 hrs
French term (edited):
un motif impropre relatif à la radiation
decision taken on inappropriate grounds
..
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: "inappropriate" sounds very PC and doesn't really express the "error"of the court below; I don't see this term being used in Court judgments as it is such a woolly expression
17 hrs
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just because a term was appropriated by the PC brigade doesn't mean they get to have the monopoly on it. // reasons given don't fit with the decision = "inappropriate" - to me it sounds like a clear but nice way of saying "you got it %$^$*^ wrong" ...
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| neutral |
Eliza Hall
: This would be understandable to an EN reader/EN-speaking lawyer, so you've certainly got the meaning right, but it's not normally said this way. We do love saying "improper." There's no reason not to use it here.
20 hrs
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OK
|
+1
1 day 2 hrs
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Native in English
Works in field
Psychologist, Court-certified legal
Native in: English
Works in: French to English
Related KudoZ points
:
451
erroneous grounds
A suggestion based on what are ordinary legal terms that, to my way of thinking, provide an accurate representation of the French meaning.
I think it is important to avoid "improper" or "inappropriate" as they have moral connotations. I would also avoid "motive" as it falls short of the French meaning in this context.
When push comes to shove, the French simply means that the basis was wrong.
I think it is important to avoid "improper" or "inappropriate" as they have moral connotations. I would also avoid "motive" as it falls short of the French meaning in this context.
When push comes to shove, the French simply means that the basis was wrong.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Daryo
: you have a valid point about moral connotations
39 mins
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| disagree |
Eliza Hall
: "Improper" has no moral connotations in legal EN. It means legally or procedurally forbidden. Erroneous is a different concept; the problem here isn't that the grounds are wrong, it's that THESE grounds CANNOT properly be used for this type of decision.
3 hrs
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| agree |
Adrian MM.
: Thanks to you and Allegro for reminding me of the speculatively allied concept of 'manquer en fait': https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/683...
1 day 20 hrs
|
1 day 7 hrs
Lisa Rosengard
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
United Kingdom
experienced and well qualified linguist
Native in: English (Variant: UK)
Works in: Spanish to English, English, Spanish, and 3 more.
unreasonable ruling or decision
The groundings or reasons for a ruling or a decision are described as unacceptable or unreasonable.
Example sentence:
S'est déterminé par un motif impropre relatif à la radiation qui a violé l'article du code de procédure civile.
It was determined by an unreasonable ruling or decision in relation to a cancellation, and which has not respected the civil code of procedural practice.
Reference comments
10 mins
AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
Specializes in field
United Kingdom
Sensible solutions
Native in: English (Variant: Wessexois)
Works in: French to English, English, English to French
Related KudoZ points
:
1355
Reference:
This should help
Posté(e) le 3 octobre 2018 (modifié)
Bonjour,
Après multiples recherches juridiques je ne parviens pas à comprendre la formule "...par des motifs impropres (à établir en quoi/à justifier/à caractériser/etc)..la cour d'appel n'a pas donné de base légale à sa décision".
Qu'entend la cour de cassation pas "motifs impropres s'il vous plaît ?
Je vous remercie par avance,
étudiante en droit.
Stéphane Boudin
Posté(e) le 3 octobre 2018
Bonjour,
En règle générale, cela veut dire que la Cour d'Appel est parvenue à la bonne solution du litige (selon la Cour de Cassation) mais potentiellement sur un mauvais fondement juridique que critique la Cour de Cassation.
Dans ces conditions, soit elle rejette le pourvoi tout en énonçant la bonne règle juridique applicable, soit elle casse l'arrêt d'appel tout en énonçant la bonne règle juridique applicable, et suivant les spécificités de l'affaire, elle casse sans renvoi ou avec renvoi à une autre Cour d'Appel.
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Note added at 40 mins (2020-12-08 12:43:28 GMT)
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Asker; bearing in minfd that the Cour de Cassation can ONLY strike down lower court decisions in grounds of law, I would think "motif impropre" simply means "erred in law", without further elaboration, albeit in your text the judgment goes on to cite which Article of the French CPC is involved.
Bonjour,
Après multiples recherches juridiques je ne parviens pas à comprendre la formule "...par des motifs impropres (à établir en quoi/à justifier/à caractériser/etc)..la cour d'appel n'a pas donné de base légale à sa décision".
Qu'entend la cour de cassation pas "motifs impropres s'il vous plaît ?
Je vous remercie par avance,
étudiante en droit.
Stéphane Boudin
Posté(e) le 3 octobre 2018
Bonjour,
En règle générale, cela veut dire que la Cour d'Appel est parvenue à la bonne solution du litige (selon la Cour de Cassation) mais potentiellement sur un mauvais fondement juridique que critique la Cour de Cassation.
Dans ces conditions, soit elle rejette le pourvoi tout en énonçant la bonne règle juridique applicable, soit elle casse l'arrêt d'appel tout en énonçant la bonne règle juridique applicable, et suivant les spécificités de l'affaire, elle casse sans renvoi ou avec renvoi à une autre Cour d'Appel.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 40 mins (2020-12-08 12:43:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Asker; bearing in minfd that the Cour de Cassation can ONLY strike down lower court decisions in grounds of law, I would think "motif impropre" simply means "erred in law", without further elaboration, albeit in your text the judgment goes on to cite which Article of the French CPC is involved.
Note from asker:
| Very useful, thanks. The right solution but the wrong way... I wouldn't have surmised that! But I wonder if it *always* means that the right solution was reached? I wonder if it means that here? Faute de mieux, I'd like to find a nice, obscure way of translating, which merrily glosses over such questions. |
Discussion
The decision itself might be right or wrong, but the (legal) grounds used to justify it are not the right ones for that decision (clue "relatif à")
Another way of looking at it: that's basically a variation on what I keep repeating for ages:
A right translation with the wrong explanation is still a wrong one.
A good decision with an inappropriate / wrong justification (based on wrong / inappropriate legal ground) is still a bad decision.