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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

du droit des poursuites

English translation:

the law on debt enforcement

Added to glossary by Stephanie Mitchel
Nov 19, 2018 22:45
5 yrs ago
11 viewers *
French term

du droit des poursuites

French to English Law/Patents Law (general) divorce court
Hello all, it's entirely possible my brain is Swiss-cheesed and I can no longer pick apart syntax. In that case, I apologize for wasting your time. However I'm trying to figure out the following sentence in the context of a Swiss court's decision on which spouse is to pay how much for child support and the living expenses of the other spouse.

"Lorsque le revenu total des conjoints dépasse leur minimum vital du droit des poursuites, le solde disponible peut, en principle, être réparti à parts égales entre les époux, chaque conjoint ayant le droit de participer d'une manière identique au train de vie antérieur."

Does 'du droit des poursuites' mean 'as established in the proceedings' or is it referring to basic living expenses as determined by a subcategory of law - or something else?
Proposed translations (English)
4 +2 the law on debt enforcement
4 +2 law relating to recovery of debts
3 of the right to take legal action
3 Law on Prosecutions
4 -1 law / regulations / legislation regarding/concerning debt recovery

Discussion

Stephanie Mitchel (asker) Nov 24, 2018:
Great discussion! Thanks very much for your thoughtful consideration of my question. I had to choose one solution that best fit my context, in my judgment, but all of the viewpoints and references you offered were highly useful.
Daryo Nov 22, 2018:
nothing wrong with nitpicking if it leads to the most accurate translation.

agree about:
- to say that this is for anything more than "action for recovery" would, in my opinion, be going beyond what is conveyed in the expression "le droit des poursuites";

but
"le droit des poursuites" can only be about law (/ rules /regulations / legislation ...) regarding/concerning "les poursuites" for two reasons:

-- simple grammar: "le droit des poursuites" = le droit relatif aux / concernant / portant sur ... => la législation portant sur les poursuites

-- the whole sentence, the way the term is used in the text: after "le revenu total des conjoints dépasse leur minimum vital" what would logically follow would be a reference to the legislation [a set of general rules] that defines this "minimum vital", NOT the mention of some individual's "right to take legal action".
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Nov 20, 2018:
So, at the risk of reapeating myself:
- to say that this is for anything more than "action for recovery" would, in my opinion, be going beyond what is conveyed in the expression "le droit des poursuites";
- to translate "droit" by "law" (meaning "loi") would be incorrect.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Nov 20, 2018:
Just being a bit nitpicky here, but although I can but agree that this is ultimately about enforcing a right to recover money, in legalese, the source document is about a "droit des poursuites", thus a "right to pursue/take legal action". The source does not refer to a "loi", so is not mention (yet, anyway) a specific law.
However, yes, it is certainly with inference to "le droit des poursuites" for "dettes et faillites", but that is not what it says and that does still not mark the distinction between "droit" and "loi", the "right" and the "law".

It is also important to note, picking up on what I have commented to Barabara's suggestion, that it is not about debt enforcement, not yet anyway. Any procedure of this sorts involves stetps and "debt enforcement" in English implies that you have already obtained a judgment debt in your favour, that you are at the stage of taking action for enforcement. An accurate description without more info would be "to take action for recovery". Returning to what the original states, I think it is not a good idea to go beyond what is actually posted, although the obvious element with which I agree is that this is about "poursuites pour dettes".

Proposed translations

+2
11 hrs
Selected

the law on debt enforcement

https://legalonline.ch/droit-des-poursuites/
"Le droit des poursuites permet d’obtenir le payement de ce qui vous est dû. Il prévoit également vos moyens de défense lorsque quelqu’un vous réclame de l’argent. "

https://www.scotlawcom.gov.uk/index.php/download_file/view/1...
24 sept. 1999 - Luxembourg. Switzerland. ...... proceedings, aliment, and financial provision on divorce or nullity of marriage. 7.7 ...... The Federal Law on Debt Enforcement and Bankruptcy of 1889, as amended, regulates debt enforcement.

This is about the minimum financial threshold below which people cannot be pursued for debt. Once the spouses' joint income passes that threshold, the surplus is divided between them, each of them having the right to enjoy the same standard of living as before.

It seems that this law varies from canton to canton.

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Note added at 11 hrs (2018-11-20 10:40:03 GMT)
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https://www.admin.ch/ch/f/gg/pc/documents/2075/Rapport_entre...
Le projet de modification du code civil sur le droit d'entretien de l'enfant ...... en ce sens que le minimum vital de celui-ci selon le droit des poursuites doit ... RS 281.1; Loi fédérale du 11 avril 1889 sur la poursuite pour dettes et la faillite (LP).

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Note added at 16 hrs (2018-11-20 15:36:17 GMT)
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Possible also, the legal right to civil remedy.
Peer comment(s):
agree LouiseNorman (X) : Yes to the term "debt enforcement".
38 mins
Thanks Louise
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : Strictly spkg, the source is about "le droit des poursuites", about the right (entitlement) to take legal action and not about the "loi" on taking action "pour dettes et la faillite". Note that "debt enfct" comes after jdgt, so this is "act. for recovery"
3 hrs
If you look at my first two Swiss references, that doesn't seem to be the case. Not "law" in the sense of a specific law/act, but in the more general sense of the law relating to the income thresholds for enforceability.
agree Richard Vranch : I would say “debt collection law”
4 hrs
Thanks Richard. Isn't debt collection more about bailiffs and debt collection agencies?
neutral Daryo : you would first try "to recover" was is owed to you, and resort to "enforcement" only if the debtor proves to be hard of hearing / won't listen to what the judge said ...
12 hrs
I think that this is a question of what that particular set of Swiss laws is called.
neutral AllegroTrans : Not sure this can really be called debt enforcement, I think it's much more likely to be simple recovery by direct deductions from benefits; very civilised, very Swiss and not involving bailliffs or other "nasties"
1 day 8 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks for a neat and well-supported solution."
11 hrs

of the right to take legal action

I think that “le droit des poursuites » is referring to the circumstances in which there is a right to take legal action rather than to a specific legal text of civil procedure. If I understand this correctly, the right to pursue a former spouse will arise in CH when the legal minimum obligations are not met.
(It is nothing to do with “prosecution” here, which is a criminal term. That said, failure to pay child support is an offence in some countries, although I still maintain that is not the point being made here. Were that the case, the fact remains that the term “prosecute” is still a criminal legal term in English). 😉
When the spouses’ total income exceeds the subsistence level below which there is a right to take legal action, the amount available can/may, [en principe?], be distributed in equal shares between them, each spouse having the right to participate in an identical way to the former way of life.

https://legalonline.ch/droit-des-poursuites/
https://www.guidesocial.ch/recherche/fiche/poursuite-pour-de...


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Note added at 11 hrs (2018-11-20 09:49:05 GMT)
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Medium confidence level as I cannot claim to be a specialist of Swiss law but I have of course sought what I believe to be reliable sources.

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Note added at 11 hrs (2018-11-20 09:51:27 GMT)
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I forgot punctuation, sorry. My suggestion therefore is:

"When/where/if the spouses’ total income exceeds the subsistence level below which there is a right to take legal action, the amount available can/may, [en principe?], be distributed in equal shares between them, each spouse having the right to participate in an identical way to the former standard of living."

Std of living = the term that was on the tip of my tongue when I first posted this suggestion!


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs (2018-11-20 10:17:32 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

If the "le droit des poursuites" does refer to a law on criminal procedure, (and not to the right to take legal action, which I believe to be the case here), then:
- it would be helpful if someone could point to a specific law, and/or
- specify which law determines that failure to make up the revenue to at least subsistence level is an offence.
(In France, failure to pay child support determined by a court is an offence, for example, so I am aware that in certain circumstances, we may be in the criminal (delit) field of the law).
Peer comment(s):
agree Ben Gaia : I read it the way you do.
1 day 1 hr
disagree Daryo : that would be "le droit aux poursuites (/ le droit d'entamer des poursuites)"- even SW FR is not weird enough to express that as "le droit des poursuites" + it won't fit in this text anyway.
2 days 5 hrs
Something went wrong...
5 hrs
French term (edited): droit des poursuites

Law on Prosecutions

-

The "droit des poursuites" refers to the Swiss "Loi fédérale sur la poursuite pour dettes et la faillite (LP)"

In the context of the Swiss "LP", "minimum vital" includes elements that are viewed as necessary for a decent standard of living rather than for mere survival.

I suggest the following translation:

"... minimum vital du droit des poursuites..."

"... decent living as defined in the Law on Prosecutions ..."

-


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Note added at 11 hrs (2018-11-20 09:48:05 GMT)
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To avoid the criminal connotation, how about replacing "Law on Prosecutions" with "Law on Civil Proceedings"?

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Note added at 11 hrs (2018-11-20 10:27:27 GMT)
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"Minimum vital" is defined in the Swiss "Loi fédérale sur la poursuite pour dettes et la faillite".

"When/where/if the spouses’ total income exceeds the decent standard of living defined in the Law on Civil Proceedings, the balance available may, in principle, be divided equally between them, each spouse having the right to take part equally in their former lifestyle."





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Note added at 12 hrs (2018-11-20 10:50:55 GMT)
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Oops! I just noticed my repeated use of the word "equally" in the above sentence.

"When/where/if the spouses’ total income exceeds the decent standard of living defined in the Law on Civil Proceedings, the balance available may, in principle, be divided equally between them, each spouse having the right to enjoy their former lifestyle."



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Note added at 12 hrs (2018-11-20 11:16:33 GMT)
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Forget both "Prosecutions" and "Civil Proceedings". B D Finch has found a more accurate solution: "Debt Enforcement".
Reference:

https://www.droit-bilingue.ch/rs/lex/1889/00/18890002-index-fr-de.html

https://www.fr.ch/opf/institutions-et-droits-politiques/justice/minimum-vital

Peer comment(s):
agree ph-b (X) : https://www.vs.ch/documents/508074/630332/Lignes directrices... /Oops, "prosecutions" may not be the right word... but I still agree with the explanation, sources, etc.
26 mins
Thanks. And, I agree that "Prosecutions" is not the right word... B D Finch suggested "Debt Enforcement", which is definitely more accurate.
disagree Nikki Scott-Despaigne : Sorry for the redness of the "disagree", but "prosecution" is a term used in criminal law. I do not think it can be used here as the police prosecute people (in the name of the State or of the Crown). This is a civil law matter.
4 hrs
B D Finch suggested "Debt Enforcement", which is definitely more accurate.
neutral Daryo : "prosecution" would normally be used when dealing with criminal charges - sounds odd when it's a civil case i.e. a dispute about money//not to forget it's Swiss FR so expect unusual use of terms NOT to be translated AS IF it was FR FR!
4 hrs
B D Finch suggested "Debt Enforcement", which is definitely more accurate.
neutral Ben Gaia : Really great refs and information.
2 days 5 hrs
Something went wrong...
+2
1 day 14 mins

law relating to recovery of debts

I think this puts it more succinctly than the other answers
Peer comment(s):
agree Daryo : can only agree, as I proposed practically the same answer before seeing yours.
18 mins
tx
agree B D Finch : Yes, that's better than "enforcement".
1 day 17 hrs
Thank you B D
Something went wrong...
-1
1 day 26 mins
French term (edited): droit des poursuites

law / regulations / legislation regarding/concerning debt recovery

droit = here used in the sense of "law / regulations / legislation" not in the sense of "having the right to do s.t."

poursuite = in the sense of "chasing" (the money owed to you) nothing to suggest any kind of "(criminal) prosecution"

My interpretation of perfectly good references already given.

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Note added at 2 days 17 hrs (2018-11-22 16:37:35 GMT)
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the law in question:

Loi fédérale sur la poursuite pour dettes et la faillite

https://www.admin.ch/opc/fr/classified-compilation/18890002/...

"le droit" des poursuites would include this law and all the cases where this law was applied, comments and clarifications given by competent authorities etc ..

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Note added at 2 days 18 hrs (2018-11-22 16:53:03 GMT)
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minimum vital du droit des poursuites
=
le minimum vital tel que défini dans / par le droit relatif aux poursuites pour dettes et à la faillite
Peer comment(s):
disagree Ben Gaia : One term is required. Site rule 3.3
12 hrs
??????? Extremely convincing argument - in some alternative / differential / free-from-logic logic, maybe // ever heard of "patriotism is the last refuge of ..."? - absolutely no parallels intended with "nitpicking about literal application of rules.."
neutral LouiseNorman (X) : Daryo, I'm sorry to see that you ended up with a "-1". For future reference, I think you'd get better results if you presented all your suggestions in the "Explanation" field, but wrote only your favourite idea in the "target term" field. ;-)
3 days 17 hrs
Thank you for your suggestions - As for what you call "-1": if I worried about all the nonsense I hear ... my latest favorite reading: ISBN 978-0-06-245771-4, very interesting! Ah yes, there is also the one about the drop of water and the duck ...
Something went wrong...
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